Ask HN: Do provisional patents matter for early-stage startups?

I am a solo founder building in AI B2B infra.

I am filing provisional patents on some core technical approaches so I can share more openly with early design partners and investors.

Curious from folks who have raised Pre-Seed/Seed or worked with early-stage companies: - Do provisionals meaningfully help in fundraising or partnerships? - Or were they mostly noise until later rounds / real traction?

I am trying to calibrate how much time/energy to put into IP vs just shipping + user traction at this stage.

Would love to hear real world experiences.

20 points | by gdad 1 day ago

9 comments

  • SkyPuncher 1 day ago
    There are exceptions to ever rule, but generally patents are (1) not incredibly important in software (2) solving a question that's secondary.

    The biggest risk to building a startup isn't "can I build this thing" (feasibility risk). It's "will people even care if I build this thing" (value risk) then "can I do it in a way people use" (usability risk). Patents help solve business risk, but that's generally considered to be the 4th (and last) of the risks.

    There are exceptions where patents do need to be filed first or the business viability dies. However, I generally assume that if you've addressed value, usability, and feasibility risks to create something truly meaningful, your competitors will find a work around to deliver the same value, usability, and feasibility without infringing on your patent. Thus, patents, are nothing but a minor inconvenience. In some cases, the public filing of a patent, can give your competitors a leg up on competing with you.

    https://www.svpg.com/four-big-risks/

  • waldopat 11 hours ago
    Go read The Founder's Dilemma by Wasserman. It's great and covers almost any problem a founder will run into. To really summarize, it's all about trade offs and prioritization. Patents vs trade secrets fits nicely.

    Trade secrets are far cheaper and easier to maintain than patents. In short, patents are only as strong as your ability to enforce them. Also Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank International (2014) weakened software and process patents. That said, if you can’t realistically defend IP in court, you effectively don’t have it. From an early-stage founder perspective, that makes patents a questionable use of time and money and potentially what kills the company.

    This may contrast from information you get from a lawyer or VC. Patents are attractive because they create an asset someone else can later buy or defend. For the founder, the incentives aren’t squarely aligned.

    Neither approach is more right or wrong, but there are very real practical consequences. If you are pre-seed who is bootstrapped or done a family & friends round and are pre or early revenue, trade secrecy is by far your better option.

    As an additional note, if you don't own the underlying AI models and are just a better wrapper for Claude or ChatGPT you at best have a very weak IP or patent position.

    • yuliuslux 19 minutes ago
      I completely agree with the points raised by waldopat. For early-stage startups, especially those in the tech space like YuliusBox, the decision between pursuing a provisional patent and maintaining trade secrets is a critical one.

      ### Trade Secrets vs. Patents

      *Trade Secrets:* - *Cost-Effective:* Trade secrets are generally cheaper to maintain. You don't need to pay for patent applications, maintenance fees, or legal battles. - *Flexibility:* Trade secrets can be maintained indefinitely as long as they remain confidential. This is particularly useful for rapidly evolving technologies where patents might become obsolete before they even issue. - *Immediate Protection:* Unlike patents, which take time to be granted, trade secrets provide immediate protection. This is crucial for startups that need to move quickly and protect their innovations from day one.

      *Patents:* - *Legal Protection:* Patents offer strong legal protection and can be a valuable asset, especially if you plan to license your technology or sell your company. - *Public Disclosure:* The downside is that the details of your invention become public, which can make it easier for competitors to work around your patent. - *Enforcement Costs:* Enforcing a patent can be expensive and time-consuming, which may not be feasible for an early-stage startup with limited resources.

      ### Practical Considerations for YuliusBox

      Given that YuliusBox focuses on client-side, secure web tools, here are some specific considerations:

      1. *Client-Side Security:* - *Algorithmic Innovations:* If your security algorithms are novel and provide a significant competitive advantage, keeping them as trade secrets might be more beneficial. This way, you can continuously improve and update them without the need for new patent applications. - *Open Source Components:* If you use open-source components, ensure that your proprietary code and configurations are well-protected. Open-source licenses often require contributions to be shared, so be cautious about what you include in your codebase.

      2. *User Privacy:* - *Data Handling Practices:* Since user privacy is a core value, consider documenting and protecting your data handling practices as trade secrets. This includes how you collect, store, and process user data. - *Compliance:* Ensure that your practices comply with relevant data protection regulations (e.g., GDPR, CCPA). While this isn't directly related to IP, it's crucial for maintaining trust and avoiding legal issues.

      3. *Competitive Landscape:* - *Market Positioning:* If your main differentiator is the user experience and the integration of existing AI models, focusing on trade secrets might be more practical. This allows you to iterate quickly and stay ahead of the competition. - *Defensibility:* Evaluate whether your innovation is defensible. If it's primarily a better "wrapper" for existing AI models, a patent might not add much value. Instead, focus on building a strong brand and user base.

      ### Conclusion

      For YuliusBox, given the nature of your product and the stage of your company, trade secrets seem to be the more practical and cost-effective approach. This will allow you to focus on developing and improving your tools while maintaining a competitive edge. However, it's always a good idea to consult with a legal expert who can provide tailored advice based on your specific situation.

      Would love to hear others' thoughts and experiences on this!

  • allinonetools_ 1 day ago
    From what I have seen, early investors care far more about speed, adoption, and clarity of problem than provisionals. Patents help later, but at pre-seed/seed they rarely change a decision unless IP is the product. Shipping and learning usually wins.
    • gdad 1 day ago
      aligned. And that is also what i am focussed on. But a friend suggested this as an optionality and I am wondering if it makes sense.
  • hackitup7 1 day ago
    Typically not much, but in practice if you truly have a unique technical moat it's easy enough that I'd get a provisional patent in place just in case.

    I would start accumulating patents at a gradual pace at around $100m ARR in preparation for IPO, assuming that you feel that is in the cards.

    • gdad 1 day ago
      Makes sense (do believe something big is on the cards). As a micro-entity, filing fees are nominal, so I guess it doesn't hurt.
  • wavemode 1 day ago
    What are you delivering? A physical product into someone's hands? If so, a patent can make some sense. If not, don't bother - patents for software are rarely worth the paper they're printed on.
    • gdad 1 day ago
      Why do you say so? Software patents are rarely guarded? Or something else?
      • wavemode 1 day ago
        If you're in the US, look into relevant court cases[0][1][2]. The courts tend to hold that algorithms are not patentable - what is patentable would be an invented machine which uses a software algorithm as one of its components. But even then, the machine needs to have some other inventive, patentable physical component.

        (This sort of thing tend to confuse people since, the US patent office doesn't check for patent validity before granting patents. So there are a lot of companies that own invalid patents which have simply never been challenged in court.)

        If you live elsewhere you should look into the laws of your local jurisdiction, but many places have the same or similar legal doctrine.

        [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottschalk_v._Benson

        [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v._Flook

        [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_United_...

      • PhotonHunter 1 day ago
        In some verticals, like advanced materials or medical devices (outside of consumer/wellness at least), patents are expected.
  • apparent 1 day ago
    Could make sense to file provisional patents, just to be able to say you have them. Expect no one will actually look at them. And remember that if you don't file a follow up within a certain time, they die.
  • josefritzishere 1 day ago
    I work in IP. You can easily operate without patents. Patents cost money to file and maintain. Most patents exist only for marketing purposes. Enforcement also isn't cheap. So, unless the IP is perceived to be highly valuable, corporations don't bother filing the patent. Only a fraction of what's patentable ever gets patented.
    • SOLAR_FIELDS 1 day ago
      Well, there’s also the fact that some organizations actually tie career progression to patents authored by the company. My brother works for a company that offers multiple technical career pathways to promotion, and one of them is essentially “obtain a software patent”
      • DANmode 1 day ago
        Yeah, but who wants to be IBM?
        • SOLAR_FIELDS 5 hours ago
          You ain’t wrong. My brother works for LargeGovernmentContractor but the thesis is the same as the Broadcom’s and the IBM’s of the world in this regard
    • gdad 21 hours ago
      really helpful pov.
  • annoyingnoob 1 day ago
    You might consider a non-disclosure agreement with parties that you need to share things with.
    • gdad 1 day ago
      doesn't that put people off? Like in early conversations?
      • josefritzishere 1 day ago
        An MNDA is very common. There shouldn't be an issue.
  • hastanag 1 day ago
    [dead]