19 comments

  • jonpalmisc 2 hours ago
    Settings > Notifications > Notification Content > Show: "Name Only" or "No Name or Content"

    I've had this enabled to prevent sensitive messages from appearing in full whilst showing someone something on my phone, but I guess this is an added benefit as well.

    • nickburns 1 hour ago
      Just to clarify, this is within the Signal app settings—not the OS (iOS or Android) system settings.

      Critical distinction, as merely changing OS notification settings will simply prevent notification content from being displayed on-screen.

      • hammock 1 hour ago
        Wait so if I do iOS setting notifications > never show previews it’s still caching them in the background? Unencrypted?
        • nickburns 1 hour ago
          Yes. And technically, from a privacy perspective, it's even worse than that. What's additionally happening is they're still 'syncing' back to Apple servers via APNS (and to Alphabet servers via Firebase on Android)—even with notifications completely disabled, that's correct.

          If the app generates them, the OS receives them. That's why the Signal app offers this setting.

          • aftbit 19 minutes ago
            Wait... why does Signal need to send notification content to Firebase to trigger a push notification on device? I would instead expect that Signal would send a push to my Android saying nothing more than "wake up, you've got a message in convo XYZ", then the app would take over and handle the rest of it locally.

            I also didn't realize that Android stores message history even after I've replied or swiped them away. That's nuts - why!?

            • satvikpendem 12 minutes ago
              If your app needs to send a notification while it's not currently a running process, it must go through Firebase on Google's side and APNS on Apple's side. There is no way for a non running app to send a notification entirely locally, this is by design of both companies.
              • vlovich123 2 minutes ago
                > this is by design of both companies.

                I’ll note that whatever other reasons it’s also the only way to make this battery efficient. Having a bunch of different TCP connections signaling events at random times is not what you want.

                Ideally the app also is responsible for rendering rather than having to disclose the message but that can be challenging to accomplish for all sorts of reasons).

          • gruez 49 minutes ago
            >it's even worse than that. What's additionally happening is they're still 'syncing' back to Apple servers via APNS (and to Alphabet servers via Firebase on Android)—even with notifications completely disabled, that's correct.

            Source? I don't think either OS implements notification syncing between devices, it's only one way, and as others have mentioned, the actually push notification doesn't contain any message content, only an instruction for signal to fetch and decrypt the message.

            • schrodinger 30 minutes ago
              This sounds correct. When I implemented push notifications for an iPhone application, I remainder needing to obtain a store a separate token for each device a user has, and subscribing to a feed of revoked delivery tokens. Seemed like an interesting design intended to facilitate E2E encryption for push notifications.
          • kmbfjr 24 minutes ago
            With notifications disabled APNS push notifications fail for the sending app backend. The device id is rendered invalid if push notifications are disabled at any point. Backends are supposed to handle this and quit sending messages.

            Signal has this setting to tell the backend how much information to put into the push message. It can tell the backend to send a simple notification saying “new message” and not send information through APNS or enable it.

            I am willing to bet Signal has a notification extension to handle edge cases where there is lag in settings to scrub the message metadata before it dings a screen alert.

        • namdnay 44 minutes ago
          yes, since apple doesn't control the content of the pushes it is sent by application backends. that can only be controlled within each app
      • JumpCrisscross 1 hour ago
        Signal should switch the default to being less verbose.
        • nickburns 1 hour ago
          The default should be "No name or content".
        • fragmede 56 minutes ago
          users should switch to simpleX
    • cdrnsf 53 minutes ago
      Disable Apple Intelligence summaries for sensitive app notifications too.
      • huxley 51 minutes ago
        Given the quality of the summaries, you might want to keep them just for plausible deniability </s>
    • jhalstead 2 hours ago
      Fwiw, in my Signal app on Android this setting is in

      Settings > Notifications > Messages > Show

      • wolvoleo 1 hour ago
        My Samsung also keeps a history of notification content. Under Settings->Notifications ->Advanced -> Notification History
        • tialaramex 1 hour ago
          However, if this is important to you then you want Signal to stop telling Android to make the notifications. If it doesn't exist nobody will accidentally make it available.

          Deleting that history is good to know about after the fact, but preferably lets just not create the problem.

    • embedding-shape 1 hour ago
      I guess enabling Lockdown mode might avoid this particular issue too, together with a bunch of other stuff?
      • everdrive 1 hour ago
        Why would lockdown mode prevent this? I have lockdown mode on but that doesn't automatically make my notifications private.
        • rustyhancock 57 minutes ago
          Lockdown mode would prevent access to the data in theory.

          But most likely (pure speculation mind you), this was a case of someone handing over the phone for review and where cooperating.

          It might have been that they deleted signal some time ago, or even deleted signal and then handed over the phone.

          It's notable that the data wasn't recovered from signals storage (was the data securely erased or that kind of recovery not attempted?).

        • embedding-shape 1 hour ago
          It's a mode of the phone that is supposed to prevent cyber attacks, more so than "normal mode" I suppose, since it's supposed to limit features in the name of security. This seems like a variant of such attack, so seems like it should protect against it
          • jonpalmisc 1 hour ago
            There is a documented list of things that Lockdown Mode affects [1], this is not one of the advertised ones. There are a bunch of other (undocumented) things it affects (some of which are bugs :/), but I don't believe it has any affect on notification storage.

            [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120

            • normie3000 41 minutes ago
              Mostly it seems the documentation is vague. Is there anything clearer than this?

              > Web browsing: Certain complex web technologies are blocked, which might cause some websites to load more slowly or not operate correctly. In addition, web fonts might not be displayed, and images might be replaced with a missing image icon.

        • giancarlostoro 1 hour ago
          Maybe it should.
  • chasil 2 hours ago
    First, a critical setting for Signal users:

    "Signal’s settings include an option that prevents the actual message content from being previewed in notifications. However, it appears the defendant did not have that setting enabled, which, in turn, seemingly allowed the system to store the content in the database."

    Second, how can I see this notification history?

    • alin23 2 hours ago
      Not sure if it's exactly the same, but I had to add a When notification arrives with <message>, do <action> event trigger in my Crank macOS app (https://lowtechguys.com/crank) so I can show you how to do it on macOS:

            HOURS=6
            EPOCH_DIFF=978307200
            SINCE=$(echo "$(date +%s) - $EPOCH_DIFF - $HOURS * 3600" | bc)
      
            sqlite3 ~/Library/Group\ Containers/group.com.apple.usernoted/db2/db \
              "SELECT r.delivered_date, COALESCE(a.identifier, 'unknown'), hex(r.data)
              FROM record r
              LEFT JOIN app a ON r.app_id = a.app_id
              WHERE r.delivered_date > $SINCE
              ORDER BY r.delivered_date ASC;" \
            | while IFS='|' read -r cfdate bundle hexdata; do
                date -r $(echo "$cfdate + $EPOCH_DIFF" | bc | cut -d. -f1) '+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'
                echo "  app: $bundle"
                echo "$hexdata" | xxd -r -p > /tmp/notif.plist
                plutil -p /tmp/notif.plist 2>/dev/null \
                  | grep -E '"(titl|title|subt|subtitle|body|message)"' \
                  | sed 's/^  */  /'
                echo "---"
            done
      
      Basically, notifications are in an sqlite db at ~/Library/Group Containers/group.com.apple.usernoted/db2/db and are stored as plist blobs.

      In recent years, filesystem paths for system services have started to converge for both macOS and iOS so I'm thinking with jailbreak you could get read access to that database and get the same data out of it.

    • 627467 1 hour ago
      On android there are apps that let you see the history - i use NotiStar occasionally to see if i unwittingly dismissed important notifications. And i believe there are apps/settings that help you clear the history from the device.

      But this is a reminder that these centralized notification infrastructure (FCM and APNs) store notification content (if the app is told to send content in it - signal with option enabled wouldn't send content) even if we clear local history these middleman still hold it

      • chasil 1 hour ago
        On Lineage Android, i see: Settings / Notifications / Notification History.

        If you drop a settings widget on your home screen, it will let you choose a specific area, including notifications.

        I don't know if the output is the complete database.

    • jhalstead 2 hours ago
      On a Pixel, I can see some history by going to

      Android > Settings > Notifications > Manage > Notification History

      • arvid-lind 12 minutes ago
        Wasn't sure if it was the Pixel or GrapheneOS, but what a relief to actually be covered in one of these weird 0day issues.

        Unrelated to the OP, but I bet the thousands of "exploits" that Claude Mythos has identified already are a lot of these kind of things that regular people would never think about.

      • seb1204 56 minutes ago
        Yes, mine (the history option) is turned off. Nice opt in implementation.
    • nashashmi 1 hour ago
      On android its quite easy. There is a page of a protocol address that has all notifications show. I used to have a shortcut to it. It has been years since I was on android.

      But it was really useful each time I did not see a notification in time.

      Edit: typo

      • tsimionescu 57 minutes ago
        > I used to have a seizure to it.

        Hopefully, you meant to write "shortcut"...

  • blitzar 1 hour ago
    > testimony in a recent trial

    Court cases are the real way to audit security.

    Larping about security and complaining about companies responding to court orders only gets you so far. Its way more useful to look at what actually happens in reality.

    • tbrownaw 1 hour ago
      The recent Trivy / LiteLLM mess was also a security thing, and seems rather different.
  • 6thbit 36 minutes ago
    So this is where we find out the one end of e2e is the phone and not the app.

    Semi-related, in whatsapp reading the text in the notification doesn't mark the message as read, so the OS is kinda mitm here.

    • zenoprax 31 minutes ago
      Signal creates the notification, does it not? That's like claiming `echo "my_private_data" | notify-send` is insecure.

      If piping encrypted content resulted in a plaintext notification then you'd have a right to be concerned.

  • alsetmusic 1 hour ago
    Original article: FBI Extracts Suspect’s Deleted Signal Messages Saved in iPhone Notification Database[0]

    0. https://www.404media.co/fbi-extracts-suspects-deleted-signal...

  • niek_pas 1 hour ago
    I wonder why Apple doesn't 'just' delete the notification data associated with the app from the internal database when the user deletes the app? It seems like asking for problems to just keep old notification content around forever.
    • gruez 45 minutes ago
      If the "database" works like most other databases (eg. postgres or sqlite), deleting a row doesn't immediately cause the data to be wiped from disk, for performance reasons. Then as others mentioned you have filesystem/SSD logic that does something similar on top of that.
    • alsetmusic 1 hour ago
      It's one of those problems where as soon as someone notices, it's crazy that no one noticed. I can't imagine this not being overhauled going forward. It's just a bad way to operate and now it's news.
    • rustyhancock 53 minutes ago
      If it never hits flash that might work, but if it's in flash storage then the block may not be erased by the time its dumped.

      I'm not sure precisely how the NAND controller responds to requests for raw data from blocks with "deleted" data. And if this would require decapping the flash.

      Some flash will happily let you see the data and delay erasing it.

      Generally flash is non deterministic about when blocks even those with entirely stale data are erased . It might be years before the block is reused due to wear leveling algorithms and it might retain data that entire time.

      Here's hoping the controller for phones which hold sensitive data are more active

  • chinathrow 2 hours ago
    On Android, when I use WhatsApp and have notifications for groups turned off, I can still see that they arrive briefly and then get removed (the icon top left vanishes). I wonder often, if this is a way to push all group message content into an unencrypted data trace as well - for the same use case.
    • arkon_hn 2 hours ago
      If the notification has the data, then yes. It's trivial to create an app that listens to notifications; Samsung even has one themselves called NotiStar that replicates the notification history feature that Android normally has.
  • echelon_musk 52 minutes ago
    As an aside, I decrypted an encrypted iPhone backup using a tool from GitHub because I wanted easy access to my Voice Memo recordings.

    Photos I had long deleted were still in the backup! It's quite surprising just how much is being stored by the phone.

  • frizlab 2 hours ago
    Aren’t notifications supposed to be encrypted for Signal?
    • shantara 2 hours ago
      iOS stores the previously displayed notifications in an internal database, which was used to access the data. It’s outside of Signal’s control, they recommend disabling showing notification content in their settings to prevent this attack vector
      • exitb 53 minutes ago
        They do control the content on the notification. It's a bit odd to put the sensitive text in the notification only to recommend disabling it at the system level.
        • kccqzy 31 minutes ago
          No. They recommended disabling it at the app level. Only the Signal app can control whether the message contents are included in the notifications.
        • frizlab 37 minutes ago
          They do not. They send encrypted notifications. It’s the OS that stores them unencrypted. It’s the OS at fault here IMHO.
          • throawayonthe 28 minutes ago
            i think they're replying to the "recommendation" part -- if it was recommended, why isn't it the safe default?

            i haven't actually seen signal or anyone adjacent recommend that previously though, idk where that claim came from

    • throawayonthe 30 minutes ago
      They are;

      “Messages were recovered from Sharp’s phone through Apple’s internal notification storage—Signal had been removed, but incoming notifications were preserved in internal memory. Only incoming messages were captured (no outgoing).”

      ie the messages recovered were 1. incoming 2. stored by the OS after decryption

      i also was spooked by the headline :p

    • makosdv 2 hours ago
      You can choose what to show in the notification and there is an option to include the message, so I'm guessing that allowed some unencrypted incoming messages to be read.
      • frizlab 2 hours ago
        Sibling comment explains. The notification does arrive encrypted and is decrypted by an app extension (by Signal), however, if the message preview is shown, it is stored unencrypted by iOS. It is that storage that is accessed.
      • butvacuum 2 hours ago
        it seems iOS will drop previews into an unencrypted section. which, Is how I expected iOS notification previews to work without unlocking the phone
    • krisknez 2 hours ago
      This kind of vulnerability is not tied to Signal but all apps which send notification.
    • dewey 2 hours ago
      [dead]
  • shalmanese 1 hour ago
    I thought Signal didn’t show message previews by default and you had to go in and enable it? I’ve never had message previews in my Signal and I don’t remember changing anything. Maybe when they introduced the feature, you could pick but they strongly suggested it not showing?
    • foooorsyth 1 hour ago
      The opposite, actually. Signal endlessly nags you to turn on notifications, and when you turn them on, previews and content are shown by default. You cannot opt out of the nags.
  • ChrisArchitect 15 minutes ago
  • etiam 2 hours ago
  • lenerdenator 2 hours ago
    There needs to be a bit more "group chat" control in Signal messages, wherein you could enforce certain settings for certain chats regardless of the phone settings. You could have group chats that would enforce not showing more information in the notifications, while others would still allow it.
    • preinheimer 2 hours ago
      This feels like it would run against the “I bought my device, I should control how it behaves” line of thinking.
      • helpfulclippy 1 hour ago
        I think it fits in pretty well with Signal. As it stands, a group chat can control when a message is automatically deleted for everyone, so everyone can rely on that being a shared setting. That's an intentional design decision. There's no individual opt-out.

        An individual can disable name or content in notifications in iOS, or set "mute messages" for a chat to prevent notifications from appearing for that specific chat, but there's nothing that gives group members any assurance that other group members are doing that.

      • etiam 2 hours ago
        But it would be pretty well in line with the "I trust my contact with this communication, but only if they're not systematically misled to copy it to readily exploitable insecure storage" line of thinking.

        Since the purposes of the program are pretty heavy on private communication, I'm inclined to think that takes precedence here, especially considering the consequences for dropping default message previews versus adding default reveal of supposedly private information.

      • kome 2 hours ago
        smartphones in general runs against the “I bought my device, I should control how it behaves” line of thinking
  • mnls 2 hours ago
    People who NEED to hide their notifications from iOS have this already disabled.

    They rest who "evaluate their threat models" can practice Spy-life-gymnastics by disabling it from Signal.

    • phyzome 1 hour ago
      What a goofy comment.

      The article you're commenting on is about people who obviously would have wanted this disabled, but didn't have it disabled, presumably because they didn't know about this issue.

    • xandrius 1 hour ago
      Victim blaming?
  • SergeAx 1 hour ago
    Probably stupid question: why won't they e2e-encrypt push notifications too? The vector is obvious and has been open since forever.
    • 0x62 57 minutes ago
      Signal does not send any sensitive information in push notifications sent via APNs [0]. This story concerns the local OS cache of push notifications, which are triggered after E2E decryption has occurred.

      [0] https://mastodon.world/@Mer__edith/111563865413484025

    • tbrownaw 45 minutes ago
      The "e" in e2e encryption is a computing device, not the device's user's brain.
      • SergeAx 0 minutes ago
        Right. So I send a push notification with the "silent" flag and encrypted content; the app receives it, decrypts the text, and displays the notification locally. Google/Apple has only ciphertext in their FBI/CIA/NSA-accessible databases.
  • i_am_proteus 2 hours ago
    Reminder that no end-to-end encryption arrangement can do anything before encryption, or after decryption, at the endpoints.
    • windowliker 2 hours ago
      Right. It's purely a protection against MitM snooping. The app has to have the messages in plaintext to display to you via whatever mechanism the OS uses. Seems obvious, but also not, at the same time.

      I've found other ways Signal can leak information, even with disappearing messages. It's not the total install-and-be-done privacy screen that some people think it is, and requires a little effort at the user end to fill in a few gaps.

  • nixosbestos 50 minutes ago
    Um. Android has notification history also and I see no similar ability to hide notification content from the system ...
    • TeMPOraL 38 minutes ago
      Good. The moment they add it, all kinds of apps will start to abuse it, for "sekhurity" (read: engagement) reasons. See e.g. all the apps that now disallow taking screenshots, for no legitimate reason.

      Personally I'd be in favor of a hard app store policy, that if an app notifies you about something, all the importantdetails (like full message text) must be included - specifically to allow the user to view the important information without having to open the app itself.

  • dfir-lab 1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • kome 2 hours ago
    signal is security theater, and a very bad user experience
    • noman-land 1 hour ago
      Prove it.
      • rainingmonkey 1 hour ago
        > very bad user experience

        "To use the Signal desktop app, Signal must first be installed on your phone."

        • well_ackshually 55 minutes ago
          thank god whatsapp doesn't do that either. or telegram. or allo back in the day, or every single mobile first messaging app

          The only one I can think of that doesn't require a mobile login is iMessage, because it's not a chat app, it's lock in and data theft disguised as software