13 comments

  • jp57 1 hour ago
    The horizontal control of venues is only one issue. A perhaps bigger issue is the vertical integration (if that's the right term) of first-party ticket sales and resale in one company. Ticketmaster has no real incentive to try to prevent resellers from buying up all the tickets on first sale, because it gets to charge fees on all the resales through its platform. The more times a ticket is resold, the better.

    I don't believe a court would ever mandate this, but I'd like to see tickets sold by dutch auction: All tickets start off for sale at some very high price, like $10000, and the price declines by some amount every day until it reaches a reserve price on the day of the concert. Buyers can purchase as many tickets as they want, but professional resellers would have to guess the price that would let them clear their inventory at a profit. Under a system like this the best seats would go earliest (at the highest prices) while the nosebleed seats might still be available on day of the show, or not depending on demand.

    • autoexec 51 minutes ago
      Why not just ban the transfer of tickets and allow refunds? You buy a ticket, you show your ID at the door. Early refunded tickets get resold online and late refunds are sold at the venue. All seats, including the best seats, go to actual fans instead of scalpers just hoping to make a profit while providing zero value. First choice in seats goes to the most passionate and attentive fans.
      • echelon 47 minutes ago
        > Why not just ban the transfer of tickets and allow refunds? You buy a ticket, you show your ID at the door.

        Because everyone on the seller side - including artists - make money on this.

        If parties other than fans / buyers cared, it would be a solved problem.

    • srmatto 1 hour ago
      It should also be said that they could do anything at all to prevent these professional scalpers from scooping up all the tickets at once, including even merely closing those APIs entirely but they continue to do nothing about it.

      The verified re-sale thing as you have correctly pointed out just allowed them to pretend like something was being done about scalping while it actually just let them make more money on the resale fees.

      • hackingonempty 19 minutes ago
        > It should also be said that they could do anything at all to prevent these professional scalpers from scooping up all the tickets at once

        Oh they did something about it. The ticket brokers can't scoop up all the tickets because many of the best ones are now only released as "Platinum" tickets at 2-5 times the price.

      • Onavo 6 minutes ago
        Or easiest is to require KYC for all the buyers (tie ticket to person instead of allowing bulk purchases) and limit ability to resale at scale. This would easily allow them to blacklist scalpers. It's not like they don't know who you are from the
      • CodingJeebus 1 hour ago
        It's long been speculated that they clandestinely participate in the resale market. If the goal of a business is to maximize profit and they control the market and technology around it, they have everything they need to push prices to the absolute limit that a customer is willing to pay.

        Based on what came out during the course of the trial, it would not surprise me at all if they are double-selling tickets.

        • doctorpangloss 8 minutes ago
          it's all an aesthetic experience, no? for the live entertainment business, it is aesthetically important to fans of Bruce Springsteen that his tickets have a number on them that appears on a website that feels good, and that number happens to be "price of ticket," even if hardly anyone is actually paying that number - they are usually paying more.

          personally, i don't think any of this legal shit matters. the sherman antitrust act is 1 paragraph long, so it is flexible in terms of how you want this stuff to work, from a, "I would like the world to work as though it were governed by a priesthood" point of view. so it's reductive to talk about, what does the law say? very little of interest.

          how should it work? live nation should be able to do whatever the hell it wants. it would make more money for everyone, at the cost of nothing. it would be good for the music industry to make more money. apple should not have lost the antitrust case over books either. nobody forces you to go to concerts! if you have a problem with ticket prices, make tiktoks complaining about it targeted at the artists. stop listening to their music. but IMO, the live performance cultural phenomenon, it doesn't benefit from this kind of regulation.

    • sgron 1 hour ago
      Ticketmaster actually experimented with this https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mic.20180230
      • jp57 1 hour ago
        Our basic findings suggest that the auctions “worked”: price discovery substantially improved; artist revenues roughly doubled versus the ­ fixed-price counterfactual; and, perhaps most importantly, the auctions eliminated or at least substantially reduced potential resale profits for speculators.... And yet, over the decade that has passed since the time of the data, rather than coming into more widespread use, ­ primary-market auctions for event tickets instead disappeared.... We conclude by speculating as to why the auctions failed to take off. As discussed in the introduction....

        They don't seem to mention the most obvious reason: the same companies profit from both the primary and secondary market. Why would TicketMaster want to reduce the number of resales when it collects fees on them?

    • ryandrake 1 hour ago
      I'm always annoyed by this kind of news. The problem has existed for a long time, and finally, FINALLY, a court weighs in on some very narrow sliver of the problem, meanwhile things keep getting worse.

      It always feels like the scene in Lord Of The Rings where they're waiting for the Ents to deliberate on the big war that's going on, and then after an agonizing amount of time they announce that they just said Good Morning and decided their guests weren't Orcs.

      Like jeez can justice move any slower?

    • esseph 36 minutes ago
      > A perhaps bigger issue is the vertical integration (if that's the right term) of first-party ticket sales and resale in one company.

      Similar problem with "healthcare" insurance companies in the US.

      We need a global crackdown on the breadth of markets a company can be involved in - somehow.

  • rossdavidh 1 hour ago
    In case you wondered what the point of the federal (i.e. states not totally controlled by federal government) system is, here's a good example. If only the federal government were allowed to pursue this case, it would have ended when the administration changed. 30 states chose to keep the case alive, and good on them.
    • saaaaaam 1 hour ago
      It makes you wonder why the DoJ settled so early. Or, rather, it doesn’t really make you wonder at all. It’s obvious there was a case and they should have let their lawsuit run. I wonder why they didn’t?
      • dylan604 1 hour ago
        this really seems like a naive question. what about this administration dropping the case seems out of place from the rest of the corruption occurring within it? do you honestly think this administration dropping a case in favor of a powerful business instead of fighting for the consumer as anything other than corrupt?
        • saaaaaam 57 minutes ago
          Sorry, I was being satirical and that doesn’t come through always in text. It’s very obvious why they dropped it because they are corrupt as hell.
      • jmcgough 1 hour ago
        Bribes, campaign donations, presidential ballrooms. The current administration has settled MANY cases that they'd already won, it's very easy to buy favors now.
        • varispeed 9 minutes ago
          and sign of law enforcement taking tax payer money and not working.
    • dragontamer 47 minutes ago
      On the other hand, I'm not sure a European style tribunal would have been allowed to settle the case early.

      Yes. It's good that the states can serve as a check on the Federal level government. But why can the federal level government give up on cases on a national level? Just because a different party was voted in?

      • danaris 28 minutes ago
        The problem is that the Department of Justice is part of the Executive Branch, and due to the burgeoning of the Imperial Presidency over the past several decades, that means that as soon as a new President is voted in, he can order the DoJ to change all their priorities to match his.

        Our system doesn't have to be this way, even with the federal/state split; it doesn't even have to be this way with the designation of the DoJ as being within the Executive Branch. It's taken a lot of erosion of norms and flagrant breaking of laws to get to the point the US is at now.

  • smartbit 1 hour ago
    • xrd 1 hour ago
      Matt Stoller is always worth reading.
  • cdrnsf 36 minutes ago
    Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

    They never should've been allowed to merge. Funnily enough Ticketmaster has the only free API I've found for concert data and it has a ton of results because it is a monopoly.

  • efitz 11 minutes ago
  • hackingonempty 1 hour ago
    from the NYT: > The jury determined that Ticketmaster had overcharged consumers by $1.72 for each ticket.

    I'm already planning what I'm going to do with the $0.20 refund I receive for each ticket I bought.

    • advisedwang 6 minutes ago
      From AP

      > The companies could also be assessed penalties. In addition, sanctions could result in court orders that they divest themselves of some entities, including venues such as amphitheaters that they own.

    • itopaloglu83 36 minutes ago
      Oh, silly me, that's why a $45 ticket came out to $78 at checkout.
    • tomwheeler 1 hour ago
      Sounds about right. The attorneys take $1.52 and leave the victim with $0.20. And then nothing actually happens that would restore a competitive marketplace.
      • xrd 1 hour ago
        Back in my day, the federal government would break up monopolies.
        • kevin_thibedeau 1 hour ago
          Used to be they wouldn't allow such mergers to happen in the first place what with the law and all that.
        • deeth_starr_v 1 hour ago
          Well, it’s also the courts. The government recently tried to break up Google but the judge refused
        • dragontamer 45 minutes ago
          Bidens administration was breaking up Google before Trump came in and stopped the breakup.

          Elections have consequences.

  • dataviz1000 1 hour ago
    The question should be did Live Nation knowingly allow scalpers (aka ticket brokers) to corner the market on highest demand events AND create artificial scarcity by only posting a small handful of the tickets they controlled at extreme inflated prices increasing the percentage fees collected by Live Nation and Ticketmaster on every ticket sold.
  • kumarski 1 hour ago
    Venue contracts are a sort of political firewall against any relevant ticketing technology becoming massive globally.

    Music festivals were a sort of guerilla attack on lack of venue contracts.

    • saaaaaam 50 minutes ago
      Lots of festivals are owned or controlled by Live Nation.
  • HardwareLust 27 minutes ago
    Cool, can't wait for the slap on the wrist and a $4 coupon we'll get in 2031.
  • jazzpush2 1 hour ago
    Now do service fees and 'convenience' fees. Every ticket I buy for a movie somehow costs $2 extra now. (As with everything else). Robbery.
    • bsimpson 7 minutes ago
      The one that pisses me off is when the waitress tells you to pay with your phone, and it's charged a "convenience fee."
    • dylan604 57 minutes ago
      My favorite is the local tax office charges extra for paying online vs going in to the office to pay in person. At first, I thought it was a way to recoup the processing fees as you're obviously paying by card online. The last time I paid in person with a card, that fee was not added on though. So they are charging you extra for not having to pay an employee to process your account.
    • micromacrofoot 1 hour ago
      usually the service fee doesn't even get refunded, which feels additionally foul
      • wccrawford 35 minutes ago
        I think that's exactly the point. They've charged you $2 to process the request. They did that work. Even if you get the money back for the event, they still did the job, so they won't refund the service fee.
    • colechristensen 1 hour ago
      California, Minnesota, Maryland, and New York have
      • bsimpson 6 minutes ago
        And then the restaurant lobby got the CA one rescinded for restaurant junk fees, which were probably the biggest culprit most people encounter day-to-day.
  • 2OEH8eoCRo0 1 hour ago
    Concert seats should be handled the same as airline seats. I can buy the same airline seat from dozens of different places online. Why is that?
    • cdrnsf 29 minutes ago
      Because the US espouses the virtues of the free market while embracing monopolies. If they cared about dealing with the latter they would empower more regulators like Lina Khan.
    • ricardobeat 28 minutes ago
      Airlines need distribution. Concert venues don’t.

      Mid/high profile venues know they will sell out regardless, they can shop around the venue rights to the highest bidder.

  • codeugo 1 hour ago
    There has been a bunch of reporting on this over the past couple years but will this even effect them?
  • dmitrygr 1 hour ago
    > The jury determined that Ticketmaster had overcharged consumers by $1.72 for each ticket.

    I think the decimal point is a few digits too many to the left here... The various "fees" routinely add up to hundreds

    • bsimpson 4 minutes ago
      That was the first part that jumped out at me.

      Apparently the state AGs dropped one of the charges that would have led to a more reasonable number there to try to make the decision easier for the jury.