10 comments

  • bronco21016 1 hour ago
    Whats really sad for aviation is there was already an extensive network of ground based navaids. As GPS has proliferated, they've slowly been decommissioned as they age out to save on cost. I'm specifically referring to VORs which provide azimuth and range to station.

    GPS is fantastic and as a primary source everyone loves the benefits it brings. However, in a century of aviation, everyone has kinda sorted out that you can't have too many backups to critical items... unless you let the accountants and bureaucrats run the show.

    • _moof 0 minutes ago
      Nitpick: VORs provide azimuth only. DMEs provide range.
    • buildsjets 1 hour ago
      VOR is extremely short range and requires an extraordinary number of transmitters to provide any volume of coverage. Additionally it cannot provide coverage over oceanic areas. We USED TO have a nearly global long-range land based navigation system called LORAN, which only required one master station and a few remote stations to provide continent-scale coverage. But it was decommissioned in a cost savings move after it was determined that it could be replaced by GPS. It worked perfectly fine until it was decommissioned in 2010, not that long ago.

      In the '90s I used to fly light aircraft back and forth between Seattle and Alaska. You were frequently out of range of any VOR transmitters, but that LORAN always worked. NDBs? That didn't work so great for Ron Brown.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C

      • verelo 1 hour ago
        On VOR: It's also a PITA to use, and for inexperienced people, or someone who rarely uses it, they can confuse flying towards and away from the station.
        • buildsjets 15 minutes ago
          If you are a general aviation goober like me, flying a 1960's propeller airplane, sure, that is true.

          However, in a modern commercial aircraft, all position sources including VOR-DMEs, GPS, and IRS are cross-compared by the flight management system and turned into a latitude, longitude, and circular error of probability. There is no TO/FROM flag to worry about in a 777, and no reverse sensing on the back side of a localizer approach.

      • mschuster91 27 minutes ago
        > Additionally it cannot provide coverage over oceanic areas.

        It's really hard to jam oceanic areas though, you need a vessel capable of sustaining human life autonomously at least for days plus dealing with the high seas.

        Buoys could theoretically be used for that purpose, yes, but good luck getting them stationary enough. Maybe some of the secret services could pull off such a trick but at least no ordinary civilian.

        • _moof 0 minutes ago
          > sustaining human life

          Not really. Drone ships are very much a thing these days.

    • jshier 1 hour ago
      Seems like we'd need a modern version that's less susceptible to jamming, otherwise aren't we just replacing one jammable service with another?
      • michaelt 19 minutes ago
        There are two types of GPS jamming.

        There's GPS jamming by the military, mostly in war zones. This seldom effects airliners because they steer clear of active war zones.

        Then there's GPS jamming by delivery drivers who don't want their boss watching over their shoulder all the time. When the article mentions jammers as small as a cellphone and costing less than $100, those are sold to drivers.

        Delivery drivers don't jam LORAN or VOR, though - so it's not jammed by the second type.

    • sokoloff 45 minutes ago
      All VORs provide a radial that you’re on. Not all provide a distance to the station. VOR/DME or VORTACs provide both. Plain VORs do not.

      As more and more are decommissioned, the percentage that support distance-measuring goes up, as the ones being decommissioned are more likely to be the less-useful ones, which are less likely to have supported DME in the first place. So most remaining ones support both, but it’s not assured without checking.

    • jacquesm 1 hour ago
      And LORAN. But it may make a come-back.

      GPS signals are just incredibly weak so it takes next to nothing to drown them out, easier still if you are above the receiver.

    • himata4113 38 minutes ago
      We have starlink I am sure they can figure something out.
      • mschuster91 26 minutes ago
        Starlink lacks the high precision atomic clocks on board of the satellites, that is also why Starlink needs a GPS fix to bootstrap itself.
        • nomel 14 minutes ago
          Maybe the starlink clocks could continuously calibrate from gps? Clock drift is usually a slow thing (like thermals). Their inter-satellite data links have all sorts of relative clocking info.
  • mlhpdx 31 minutes ago
    With all the man made EM emitters in the world, it seems like passively matching what can be “seen” to a database of known emitters (with signal profiles and locations) could be extremely accurate where people are (less helpful on the open ocean and remote wilderness). Similar to what’s already being done with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth but general purpose, perhaps?
  • donohoe 38 minutes ago
    What I want is a tiny portable bluetooth jammer for those who insist everyone in public must be listening to their music. Sadly they are too clunky to haul around each day.
    • subw00f 34 minutes ago
      Are they? You can make one pretty easily and sew it into your backpack for added camouflage. I heard.
    • abirch 8 minutes ago
      Unfortunately for me, when I hear music it's from the horrible audio of a cell phone speaker.
  • teeray 1 day ago
    I saw some rumblings (can't find an article) that there's interest in restarting LORAN to provide an alternative to GPS for this reason.
    • throw0101d 1 hour ago
    • budman1 21 hours ago
      LORAN can be jammed.
      • leonidasrup 18 minutes ago
        "In trials conducted by the General Lighthouse Authorities of UK and Ireland, a 1.5W radio jammer was able to knock out GPS signals over a range of 30 kilometers. However, to do the same to the Loran system, you'd need a 40ft tower — and around 25kW of juice to power it."

        https://www.engadget.com/2013-01-21-uk-eloran-navigation-sys...

      • teeray 20 hours ago
        Well certainly, no one thing is impervious. But if you have GPS, LORAN, VORs, NDBs, astronavigation, etc. you have many more options at your disposal and present a much more complex attack target.
        • butvacuum 1 hour ago
          It's 2026: we have more ways to defeat jamming, or make it irrelevant, at unit costs trivial for commercial and most private applications. 1) atomic clocks can be smaller than a closed fist and allow GPS to work with 3 satalites with ocassional drops to 2. 2) the same clocks can be used to filter out radio sources from the wrong direction. 3) star navigation (commercial is often above weather, most weather is clear in some IR bands) 4) Terain following (easy to store maps now) 5) Inertial. 6) magnetic

          When combined it is very hard to break the position fix. I expect the issue with the system is it's a military tech. with all it's that'll associated legal problems. After all. it'd bypass most the protections built into GPS modules.

          • wbl 42 minutes ago
            And the military has JDAM with HOJ as a solution for jamming
        • mschuster91 22 minutes ago
          > astronavigation

          Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this, or an aircraft with high enough window cutouts that allow for the use of a sextant. Old Boeings had them [1], but no modern aircraft does.

          I think even among navies you'll be hard pressed to find a navigator who still can do astronavigation. IIRC even the US Navy discontinued astronavigation, but recently-ish reintroduced training for it again.

          [1] https://virginflightdeck.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.htm...

          • leonidasrup 5 minutes ago
            In the 21st century you don't do astronavigation by hand, you use cameras, computers and software.

            Astro-inertial guidance is used for example in submarine-launched ballistic missiles.

            "Astro-inertial guidance, or stellar-inertial guidance, is a sensor fusion-information fusion of inertial guidance and celestial navigation. It is usually employed on submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Unlike silo-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, whose launch point does not move and thus can serve as a reference, SLBMs are launched from moving submarines, which complicates the necessary navigational calculations and increases circular error probable. Stellar-inertial guidance is used to correct small position and velocity errors that result from launch condition uncertainties due to errors in the submarine navigation system and errors that may have accumulated in the guidance system during the flight due to imperfect instrument calibration."

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance

          • teeray 6 minutes ago
            > Good luck finding a pilot trained on doing this

            Not necessary. ICBMs have been able to do this autonomously for a very long time [0]

            [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

      • jacquesm 1 hour ago
        Not so simple. For one the distances to the transmitter are much smaller, for another the amount of power available to the transmitters is pretty much whatever you want to hook it up to, whereas GPS satellites are on a pretty strict power budget. On the reception side the power levels are many orders of magnitude apart.
      • cyberax 1 hour ago
        Not really. It uses 2MHz band, with the wavelength of around 160m.

        This means that it's easy to receive via a ferrite bar antenna but hard to transmit. You need an antenna of at least around 40m size for that to be efficient.

        • lstodd 43 minutes ago
          Even a 160m guy-wire tower is cheap. 40m.. my friend installed 32m one just to have better internets, not exactly out of pocket cash, but nothing compared to say swapping a car.
    • laruss5 1 day ago
      [dead]
  • eternityforest 1 day ago
    Is there a reliable app to detect these without using excessive amounts of battery?
    • thenthenthen 58 minutes ago
      Better use a software defined radio like hackrf or a more dedicated gps thingy, esp32 with gps addon and some machine learning? (‘Some’ doing a lot of heavy lifting here)
    • imglorp 1 hour ago
      I feel like gps nav software should start considering the jamming and spoofing cases as real conditions they will encounter that should throw up an INOP warning.

      It wouldn't take much smarts for it to consider the type of vessel it's in and the max and current speeds. If the calculated position of a 10 knot vessel suddenly jumps 100 km away in seconds, that sure seems like a spoof. And if you had 10 satellites locked and then you have none, that sure seems like jamming, or you're in a tunnel; INOP either way.

  • stefan_ 1 hour ago
    The systems jamming in Hormuz and Ukraine aren't exactly cheap and low powered, nor are those used by the US military in one of their many jamming exercises every year. Cheap GPS jammers fit in a cigarette lighter and are used by truckers who don't want their boss snooping on them, but they don't quite threaten aviation.

    That aside, you don't need to give up on GPS just yet. As expensive as airplanes are, there is no reason not to have at least 8 element CRPA receivers in them. Mostly a military niche product in the past they are rapidly proliferating, and most fuselages make for a great ground plane.

  • fangspire 27 minutes ago
    Starlink can be uses as GPS. Good luck jamming 20 thousand satellites.
    • nomel 6 minutes ago
      That's near orders of magnitude more than reality. The only number that matters is the number of satellites that are in communication line of site. A satellite on the other side of the world doesn't help you.
    • inemesitaffia 24 minutes ago
      They've removed the in-built PNT service
  • madiling 19 hours ago
  • juliusceasar 1 day ago
    Those cheap GPS jammers, which sites should I avoid to not buy them by accident?
    • vablings 39 minutes ago
      It's not rocket science to make a GPS jammer. GPS Spoofing is more complex and causes way more damage or chaos. I would seriously avoid touching this subject whatsoever this is the kind of thing that will have the FBI and FCC so far up your ass you will feel it in the back of your eyeballs. On the off chance the feds don't catch you and you cause a serious accident you will be charged with 1st degree murder of how many people were on the aircraft that crashed along with a litany of other federal offences meaning life without parole is basically a guarantee.
    • michaelmrose 1 hour ago
      [dead]
  • djoldman 1 hour ago
    No worries in the long run; similar to the "energy crisis," new inventions and technology will mitigate the issue:

    Quantum Compass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_compass

    Also see: https://www.sandboxaq.com/post/sandboxaq-and-acubed-achieve-...

    • vablings 44 minutes ago
      The magnetic approach is very interesting. I can't imagine it would ever be reliable enough for a primary instrument since its susceptible to solar weather and certain regions with more geological activity.
    • andrehacker 1 hour ago
    • Hizonner 1 hour ago
      I'm sorry, but a multi-kilogram (at a guess), five-figure-priced (at a conservative guess) device with kilometer-scale error (per their actual press release) is not a substitute for a GPS.

      And you probably can't improve on many of those specs no matter how much "inventing" you do. There's just not that much information in magnetic fields, especially if you don't spend an infeasible amount of money on keeping maps up to date. You're probably jammable, too.

      The same applies to the gravitational hacks, and the mapping issue applies even to visual navigation.

      Those guesses, by the way, are because not only is AQNav's "data sheet" worthless fluff, but they seem to be allergic to letting anybody even see a picture of the product. Which makes me doubt that they actually have what a normal person would think of as a "product" to begin with.