Touch-screen Macs is kind of a terrible development for anyone who loves the Mac. It's not just a harmless feature that you can ignore if you don't want it, because it's customer-facing and will now generate complaints and bugs from people who do use it. Those people will complain (rightly) that macOS UI widgets are too small to accurately manipulate with your fingers (they are indeed too small) and don't make sense with a touch screen (they don't make sense).
That means Apple will begin imposing all sorts of UI dreck on all of us, whether we want to use our screens as touch surfaces or not.
This is basically what happened with Microsoft - Windows Vista and 7 were installed in plenty of laptops with touchscreens, and customers would complain about not being able to maximize windows without closing them, not being able to open menus without touching toolbar buttons, etc.
Eventually Microsoft listened to them and we got Windows 8. Now this is the beginning of the same process for macOS.
I would argue that once the dust settled post-Windows 8 with Windows 10 a full decade ago, the touch screen has been the opposite of what you’ve described for Windows systems. It absolutely is a harmless feature that you can ignore. There’s no reason not to have one.
Same goes for Linux. My CachyOS install on my Framework 13 Pro has a touch screen. There’s literally no downside for me having it. I don’t have to use it if I don’t want to. But if I want to scroll a website or scrub a video the option is there.
I don't think you can say that. Windows 10+ has a tablet mode that is completely detached from desktop mode, and it's a global toggle. Switching on tablet mode brings full-screen, upscaled, simplified explorer and settings, and switches off the classic desktop launcher with paper bin, shortcuts, etc. in favor of a larger "Start"-type menu launcher. What deeper and experimental integration there was in Windows 8 had just been removed as it became clear MS couldn't quite sell into the iPad/Android tablet market or compete in terms of power management. After stripping most of Windows 8 innovations, what remains is a touch keyboard, touch mouse emulation, and a few affordances in explorer to make tablets not outright terrible, with the target audience education and mbas interested in mobile powerpoint and web/mail.
You make a good point. Windows 10 course corrected fairly heavily from Windows 8. The tablet mode was there but you could ignore it pretty easily.
However, I still feel like Apple is in their Microsoft era where they're making some of the same mistakes Microsoft have made in the past 20 years.
Aero -> Liquid Glass
Ads in the OS -> Ads in core applications
Fullscreen ads for Microsoft services in the OS -> banner ads for Apple services in the OS
Dark patterns for Windows 11 upgrades -> Dark patterns for macOS 26 upgrades
Windows Mixed Reality -> Vision Pro
I could also say Surface Duo -> iPhone Duo but at this time it's too early to tell. I also think that a touchscreen Mac is a mistake. Not because it's something Microsoft already did but because the reason a MacBook does not need a touchscreen is because Apple has best-in-class trackpads.
I made this point below, but Windows 10 still doesn't have the display-real-estate efficiency of Windows 7. Windows 10 wastes all kind of screen space on large, flat surfaces that a non-touch-screen user will never use. Windows 7 wasn't as pretty as Windows 10, but it was better at displaying information.
So actually, you are harmed by this decision every day you use a Windows 10/11 laptop. You live with this every day. You just don't know what you're missing.
Let's try to imagine a situation when Win10+ UI has "the same display-real-estate efficiency of Windows 7".
Would it change anyhthing? No. Because developers of the programs what are not part of Windows aren't keen on keeping "the same efficiency". Audacity 4, Thunderbird are good examples of a bad interface - and they did it disregarding the OS UI.
Not anymore, a lot of apps (from browsers to the system UI) adapt to whether you have a touch screen and whether you use it. For example, Windows Explorer and Edge (and Chrome) still use (relatively-)compact widgets on touchscreen-less computers.
unless i misunderstand the implication as to their behavior on touchscreenful computers, this would seem to poorly address the concern upthread of explicitly expecting the touchscreen hardware, and thus the concomitant software annoyances, to become effectively unavoidable
Are you making this point from the context where you’ve never tried a touch screen computer?
This isn’t an unimplemented theory. You can head over to Best Buy right now and see what it’s like to use a touch screen laptop.
I feel like all this debate is taking place in an odd vacuum where a lot of us are talking about a bunch of potential problems with having a touch screen on a computer and all these problems are already resolved.
Maybe it’s similar to the whole iPhone duo thing where Apple users are just discovering all the caveats of a foldable phone, but we’ve already gone over all of it with competitors.
> It absolutely is a harmless feature that you can ignore. There’s no reason not to have one
what i've learning developing and creating products over the years is that harmless features tend to be the ones that cause the most problems. for ex, now you have to add touchscreen code to the OS vs previously not having it at all. and this code or feature we will support for the rest of the lifetime of that product.
I was expecting there to be more like a ‘studio mode’ where you can fold it over to make it a screen interface that has some kind of bigger iPad style Ui. Where you could also use a stylus.
Basically a product for the people currently carrying around a MacBook Pro and an iPad Pro.
Just touch on a laptop screen makes no sense. I’ve never felt the need to do this.
Judging by the Apple marketing page, touch is used for (1) scroll; (2) zoom; (3) draw. I hope that’s all the ways touch can be used. It’s a bad idea to expect touch to be used instead of the cursor to click on buttons.
I have a MBP M1 which has been my main laptop since it came out. I never really understood why so many people complained about the Touch Bar. In fact, I will kind of miss the Touch Bar when I eventually replace the MBP M1 with something else a few more years down the line.
The first iteration of the touch bar didn't have a physical escape key. I'm not even a VI user but that was my main complaint. I barely use function keys so I was ok with them being virtual (they showed up when I was in the terminal). But I did love adding a custom screenshot button to it and I loved the way the volume and brightness controls worked.
It not only removed the F-keys, but it was not as responsive as a keyboard and a misplaced finger did something you may not want. Personally I HATED the thing.
I think this can easily be seen in the introduction of windows into iPad OS. I hate when the wrong motion creates a window from what I was working with. And this is on the 11" pro.
Introducing features nobody asked for with clever bs gestures, then forcing the user to undo their effect using obscure keyboard sequences or settings one has to lookup on the web is absolutely terrible UI, and something that would've never passed under Jobs' reign. It's not just the iPad windows misfeature, Mac OS' full screen mode has that problem as well. Whoever is responsible for that should seriously consider their career choices. There are PLENTY ergonomic problems to take care of, such as the error-prone keyboard entry on iOS, the Finder not showing full paths in Info details, broken window focus management (clicking a window tops ALL windows of the app), Spotlight, Expose refactored into uselessness (is it even there still?), the list goes on.
You can turn that off, by the way. Settings -> Multitasking and Gestures -> select Full Screen Apps. Just turns all that off. I honestly don't mind it on my Air but on the Mini is just fucking useless as a feature so I know this lol
100% agree
We should assume that new engineering leadership that came - it was too late.
Let’s pray that MacBook pro team will leave apple sooner or later to build alternative laptop.
This touchscreen seems to be bifurcation point with no return. I hope we also get alternative for M-class cpu, this might be the biggest dealbreaker
I don't think it's quite that bad, but I’m already in the habit of swatting the hands of people who point too closely at things on my laptop screen with their greasy fingers. gtfo
I mean, if this is what you've been waiting for forever and it changes your life for the better, then congrats. But I think this will wind up being a huge net-negative for most Mac users as macOS is made to look and feel more and more like iPadOS.
Buttons sized to be hit by your physical thumb and buttons sized to be hit by a tiny high-precision cursor are very different things.
I am sitting on a macbook pro with the vertical tab pane open in chrome, with 12 tabs. The outer joint of my thumb covers the entire list, in both width and height. A touch-friendly version of that would be humongous in comparison.
Hahahaha have you even used macOS starting with tahoe? the liquid glass ui was made for touch! it is literally the antithesis of mouse-driven design. the buttons are large and circular, with huge corner radii. huge gaps in between them as well.
Perhaps it is with a heavy dose of copium that I say: I hope the extremely tentative development and release of this product (after having been on the record as fervently against touchscreen laptops), along with the eye-watering price point indicates that this isn't being viewed as the future of the MacOS experience. I hope this remains framed as a true pro-focused experience that unlocks specific apps without greatly impacting the central MacOS design philosophy.
I agree with the doomerism, and I expect the end goal would be merging MacOS UI with iPadOS. so the Mac will be an iPad with a keyboard. Clumsy , low-resolution controls that depend on clumsy touch experiences instead of lightning fast keyboard shortcuts.
The end result will be akin to taking keyboards away from Platinum league top tier Korean pro RTS players. 500+ operations per minute down to 10
It’s funny how disconnected macOS users are from reality when it comes to laptop touch screens.
That just hasn’t happened with Windows touch screens.
Yes, Microsoft did fuck around and find out with Windows 8, but by the time Windows 10 landed an entire decade ago, this whole issue has been completely settled. That’s right, your Windows/Linux user friends have been using touchscreens (or no touch screens) without issue for a decade. No UX sky has fallen in this regard.
There’s absolutely zero downside to having a touch screen on Windows and you also absolutely don’t need a touch screen to use it.
I’m using a touch screen on my Linux laptop right now and it’s great. I don’t have to use it. The screen being touch didn’t cost me extra money. It’s just there if I want it.
The Apple camp seems to believe that every technology included with a product must have some kind of intentional holistic value. Apple removed the USB-A port because USB-C is the future. Apple removed the escape key and the function keys because the Touch Bar would replace it.
But the truth of the matter is, sometimes the option to just include both isn’t some kind of magical barrier that Apple can’t do.
You go out and buy a ThinkPad X9 15p and it has 3x thunderbolt, HDMI, SD card, and USB-A. Why doesn’t a MacBook Pro include USB-A? Well, remember, USB-A is the past! It’s legacy!
But the thing about it being unnecessary doesn’t change the fact that it remains trivially expensive to include, and it comes in handy for a bunch of peripherals that aren’t even that old.
So, I think this is why everyone assumes that Apple is going to destroy the OS because of some new thing they add to the hardware. Because the Apple cult is all about the mythical finely crafted experience. If you don’t do things the Apple way you’re holding it wrong. but in Microsoft/Linux-land, they don’t really care. Linux is fully free, and Microsoft knows their demographic net is too wide and their marketshare is too high that they can’t dictate form factor, choice of peripherals, etc. Their whole philosophy is that Windows is suitable for anything and everything.
The Apple culture can’t contemplate a technology company just including an extra option for users with no specific intended use case. PC manufacturers include a touch screen because, screw it, it only costs a few cents extra and maybe someone might like it, software integration be damned/that’s not our problem.
Windows 10 reversed a lot of the controversial UI changes from Windows 8, but the mouse/keyboard UX was still largely a regression from Windows 7 due to the introduction of giant padding regions on any new/redesigned software so people could use their fingers. Maybe people haven't noticed this as much because the economics have worked out such that most software is now designed for web/mobile first, so having giant padding regions on desktop is more normal.
Macs had managed to avoid this degradation for a while because they didn't have touchscreens, but Apple put in the giant finger-friendly padding regions as part of the UI changes in Tahoe, which got a lot of negative feedback. Now that they're introducing touchscreen laptops, it's unlikely that they'll ever fully revert those changes since it will make the touch experience worse.
I really strongly disagree. I've been using Windows since the 2.x 286/386 days. Windows 10 and 11 are still less functional, UI-wise, than Windows 7 was. They're still not capable of the information-density that Windows 7 was. They still have larger and less space-efficient widgets than Windows 7 did.
We forget this because Windows 7 was ugly and Windows 10 and 11 are nicer looking and that feels like progress, somehow. But you don't get nearly the functional information density with Windows 11 that you did with 7.
One difference is that Apple has always considered it their job and divine right to tell you how to use your computer, where Windows a d Linux never have.
Microsoft produces an OS. Linux is an OS. When a hardware partner of Microsoft wants to introduce touchscreen laptops Microsoft has to support them. Is it realistic that Microsoft tells them to pound sand and the partner ships the hardware with Linux? No. Whereas Apple is supposed to have an overarching design team. Someone that currently occupies the role Jony Ive occupied should have the power to tell the hardware team not to ship touchscreens in Macs.
the concern rests on the likely trajectory for the mac laptop.
Windows laptops never expected tough screen adoption to hit 90% and still touch degraded the experience.
The worry here is that with Apple's e2e design control over the Mac, that this pivot will mean our MacOS UX will be removed in lieu of a more iPad-like experience.
Just look at other developer-friendly features like unlocked bootloaders, background jobs, unsigned software that Apple has removed from their hardware .
So this is a big deal and significant. It's different than you running Linux on your Windows laptop because the touch experience there never had a chance to push out the traditional UX.
I disagree. One of the key differentiators is that technology is being introduced in the highest cost, highest capability sku in their product lineup. This laptop costs more than my first car, although I’m old :)
What Microsoft introduced touch surfaces, they came out of the train wreck of Longhorn and they were under the belief that they could push windows down to phones. Reality was that they pushed touch surfaces in a barbell distribution… ultra high end and ultra low end. Mostly low end as screen costs were super high.
With Apple, look at the pencil and the iPad. They’ve had a lot of fits and starts, but the Apple Pencil didn’t fundamentally change the iPad, but it did open the door for a very high value use cases for things like procreate.
Probably not because at the end of the day the employees and engineers at Apple have to use the Mac and macOS to write software so there's a concrete floor that they can't break through in terms of usability. They may make some mistakes or something but the OS has basically been the same thing for like 20 years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Everyone's focused on the touchscreen, but I'm seriously impressed how they managed to cut down the weight.
* For the 14-inch: 3.5 lb (1.59 kg) -> 3.0 lb (1.36 kg)
* For the 16-inch: 4.7 lb (2.13 kg) -> 4.0 lb (1.81 kg)
About 15% lighter on both models. Switching from LCD to OLED saves weight because the screen does not need a backlight and has fewer layers. They also made the laptop thinner by nearly 1 mm. But that's not enough to push the weight down by 300 grams. They must have redesigned internal components to cut weight as well.
There must have been a dedicated effort to reduce weight. Kudos to the MacBook Pro team!
I would have loved to get the decrease in weight, but I bought my Macbook Pro 128 GB in March and the equivalent is now 50% more expensive, from 5000 to 7500. The memory price skyrocketing is so bad but I don't know if it will ever get better or if these prices are the best we will ever see again.
Ironic that you chose the Apple TV. There's a bit of nuance, and the 3rd gen was $149, not $129 (the latter is Wifi only, when the first two were Wifi+Ethernet).
They then bumped UP the 3rd gen: $249 (+$100) and $199 (+$70).
And the 4th gen has only one option, at $299.
So we've not only "not dropped" prices on the 4K Apple TV, but they've gone up forty per cent.
The pricing isn’t extortionate. It’s literally just them having to pass on the insane price of RAM (itself priced due to the massive demand and supply shortage).
And you’re right that Apple is hesitant to change prices on models. But that cuts both ways. Apple notably held off of bumping prices across their product line for a considerable amount of time, very plausibly eating the cost of RAM price increases.
It would definitely be atypical but given the unique and extreme nature of the current situation, I wouldn’t be shocked if they cut prices somewhat once the RAM situation relaxes.
Right up to the launch of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro in mid 2023, Apple would still happily charge you early 2019 prices for the 2019 Xeon processors in the previous edition, 2019 prices for memory and flash (I ordered mine with 32 and used OWC to go to 192GB, because for the exact same chips, spec, timings, OWC wanted $1,050 for 192GB, and Apple wanted $3,000 for 160GB, i.e. minus the 32GB already rolled into the price. Similar $1K to $3K margin for 8TB of SSD - I bought a PCIe card with 4x2TB Samsung Pro drives).
I just bought a portable keyboard for my iPhone - coupled with a SSH client, its quite a useful combo these days.
I had to prove the OP wrong though; my M1 Max's keyboard died this year, and I had to upgrade to the M5 max this season, after the hikes. I kissed 9k EUR goodbye for something not much better functionally than the M1 Max it replaced, bought for 3.4k Canadian dollars in the wonderful 2021 (that was barely over 3200 EUR back then).
It also thermally throttled like hell, was much thinner, and had much reduced IO. What's impressive is keeping the same form factor and IO selection, and still getting that weight reduction.
Assuming you are talking about the 4-port version of the 2019 Intel Pro model, the 2019 had more I/O than the next gen 14-inch, specifically because the 4th port on the 14-inch got turned into a dumb HDMI port that can only do HDMI out, not HDMI/DP/USB/Thunderbolt like an actual Thunderbolt port can. It is absolutely a reduction in total I/O capabilities, changes in abilities from Thunderbolt 3 to 4 notwithstanding.
I would rather have 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports than 3 Thunderbolt 4 ports, an SD card slot I won't use, and 1 HDMI port that can only be used for HDMI instead of whatever the hell I need it to be another Thunderbolt port can be.
I would rather have a Framework 13 Pro where I could choose 4 ports of my choosing and swap them out at will. (That’s my current machine, sold my M2 MacBook Pro for it).
I would rather have a ThinkPad X9 15p Aura Edition, which has 3x thunderbolt, SD Card, HDMI, and USB-A, all at the same time with no dongle.
I love the Framework laptops in every other respect, but I just don't get the "swappable port" concept. Those are still dongles; they're just special dongles that can only be used on one brand of machine and which require allocating internal space away from battery, on a machine whose power-hungry OSes can't spare a single watt-hour.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about it. They're dongles that don't stick out when you use them. That eliminates a lot of the annoyance with dongles.
They also let you customize what ports you want in your laptop. You don't have to customize them. You don't have to pull them out. It's still an advantage.
You can also replace your ports easily if they get physical damage.
They can also be used on any brand of machine or even a smartphone. They're just Thunderbolt/USB-C.
They don't take space away from the battery, the battery on the Framework 13 Pro is almost the exact same size as the one in the MacBook Pro 14, and as of the M5 model the Framework 13 Pro gets better battery life than that Mac.
Exactly. I'm not happy about being in Dongleville. It sucks shit here. I have boxes of dongles. They get tangled on my desk with is stupid messy with dongles. Stupid things. But I am here. And everyone else seems really happy about Dongleville and I can't change the fact that I need dongles, so we might as well just embrace it.
Because the Dongle-heads do have one thing right, one port that can be turned into lots of other kinds of ports with a dongle is more versatile than a port that can only be a video out, especially when the device doesn't have a ton of room for lots of ports.
Fujitsu U939 13" is lighter than 1kg, has a charger port, 2 USB-C, 2 USB-3, RJ45 (folded), HDMI, Smartcart, SD card, SIM Card, Pen, Mouspad with real buttons, keyboard with normal cursor buttons and separate PgUp and PgDown buttons.
My t480s is also very light as is the framework 13. I was actually surprised how heavy the m1 pro was when i got it, much heavier than the intel 13 before it, but more like the macbook from 2012.
Sounds like maybe the Macbook Air could become the original 12 inch Macbook(2015) weight eventually. They might even re-introduce a 12 inch model. Imagine that!
thank god! at work many people intentionally choose the 14" just because of weight. Once you add the charger in, the 16" is very noticeable in a bag and makes you pack a little differently for flights.
Yep. I got a 15" MacBook Air as a replacement because I still wanted portability but reduce the weight. I have 2 M1 Pro MBP (one work, one personal) and the added weight is noticeable at conferences...
They might have changed the internal fan layout. If you look it AR mode, you can look underneath the display , there’s usually two fan exhausts there, this one has only one
But I also only have an m1 16” so it may not be a brand new change
Macbook airs are lighter because they are smaller and lack fans (and maybe for other reasons too) so it is not comparable, but it is one of the reasons I like fanless laptops (whatever cuts a bit the weight for mobility is welcome).
Thats a side effect of the 1000+ dimming zones no? I snagged this ASUS ProArt display that was Professional Grade on eBay and among its many flaws is that its 1000+ dimming zones result in blooming whenever you have bright items on top of a complete black background. Makes it terrible for horror movies. :/
Yes. What I've never understood is why Apple, when they looked at it in prototype, didn't just adapt a color profile that latched black a few values higher (basically the opposite of crushing blacks). It would have meant the display would have had slightly worse blacks, but at least they would have been uniform. If Jobs had seen this display he would have thrown the device, and perhaps the designer, straight out of a window.
You know what you also only notice in very dark rooms? Super high contrast ratios. So the feature fails in the one situation in which it could make a positive contribution.
TBH this is one of the things that will be a clear downgrade imo. Weight reductions and thinness are not free. The Pro and Max chip version are already over powered for the cooling system the current macbook pros have. And now they are further cutting into the laptop...
The display change itself likely accounts for some of the thickness and weight reduction. The mini-LED backlight grid on the previous displays wasn't nearly as thin or light as an OLED panel.
I heard that was a result of them designing for certain thermal envelopes ahead of time and Intel then delivering chips that didn't meet the specs they were promised. Not sure is this is what happened though so take with a grain of salt.
If this was the case, one the one hand they should be criticized for releasing such bad laptops on the market but if they had already decided on developing their own silicon then maybe it made sense to just accept that some generations of Macbook were going to have thermal issues and focus all efforts on the future.
Correct me if I am wrong but the heat problems were essentially Intel chips in the mid to late 2010s right? They are all essentially the same chip design with small window dressing added each year. The underlying problem is the same. Old design that suffered from Intel's issues in their fabs.
Yes, but there was ample time for Apple to re-design the thermal system of their macbooks. Instead they kept releasing extremely thermally limited devices year after year.
So what you're telling me is that Apple is willing to put multiple generations of devices out to pasture because in the future they intend fix it with a new platform. That does not inspire confidence that they now care about thermals, the opposite actually. What you're saying is that they again might have slipped up and we need to wait for the next redesign for it to improve.
Not sure why this is downvoted but it is a valid concern. I will wait and see some thermal testing as someone mentioned on new cooling design which I can't find on the page just yet.
For those not aware, the 100Wh limitation is not Apple, but imposed on them by the airline industry (IATA)[1]
Anything over >100Wh && <160Wh requires airline approval at individual passenger level. Anything >160Wh is classified as dangerous goods and must be prepared and packaged correctly and put in the hold.
It would be cool if they had an add on battery that fit seamlessly. Or imagine a swappable battery? And then ensure you only use the 100wh when flying?
The airline rules are a bit arbitrary. They have allowances for mobility devices but don't seem to take any extra precautions for them when they have bigger batteries. There are still a lot of dangerous gaps in airline safety when it comes to lithium batteries.
> The airline rules are a bit arbitrary. They have allowances for mobility devices but don't seem to take any extra precautions for them when they have bigger batteries. There are still a lot of dangerous gaps in airline safety when it comes to lithium batteries.
They're absolutely arbitrary. From what I've seen, one of the major problems is wild variation in quality. An 80Wh battery from six-random-letters-off-Amazon is going to be more dangerous than a 160Wh battery from a reputable manufacturer.
Welcome to 2016. Lightweight OLED displays have been in the market since a decade ago, but now we are praising Apple for catching up 10 years later for a laptop with a "pro" moniker? Damn, the Apple ass-kissing here never disappoints.
I am a fan of OLEDs and have enjoyed secondary PC laptops with OLED, however, to be clear:
- Most OLED PCs were not anywhere as bright as the old MBP miniLED display.
- Almost all OLED PCs have terrible blue shift when viewed at an angle.
- Apple miniLED XDR displays are no slouches either. They are not quite OLED, but they implemented the dimming zones very well with uniform backlighting and deep blacks.
I have not seen Apple's on MBP, but I bet it meets or exceeds iPad Pro Tandem OLED which does not have the two problems above.
So no, it is not the same as the decade old PC OLED. And I have ignored all the potential durability issues.
I had a Lenovo thinkpad with OLED before switching to a MacBook Pro (first M1 Max, now M5 max). I don’t really mis the OLED display, it’s not that big of a difference (according to my 55 year old eyes…) the thinkpad also had a touchscreen, never used it, only by mistake. I would not pay extra for a touchscreen or OLED on a laptop. The photos on the apple website are not convincing, playing a keyboard on a vertical screen looks very uncomfortable.
Also don’t understand the iPhone duo, I’d rather have a normal iPhone and an iPad Air. Cheaper, and better for mobile use and for couch media consumption.
And Apple apologists confuse stale designs, unchanged chassis, and subpar spec sheets for “intentional design” and “holistic products.”
I think some of those folks should face some facts:
- The notch on the MacBook Air and Pro lineups is unnecessarily huge and embarrassing. It’s obvious that Apple intended to implement FaceID and couldn’t get it into the notch by their deadline, then they just left the huge notch there with barely any software consideration for it, like how your menu bar icons and menus can just disappear if there isn’t enough room with no recourse.
- There is no design or cost reason for Apple to be this late on offering a touch screen on their laptops. There is no downside to a customer who buys one and doesn’t want a touch screen, they can just disable it.
- The 60Hz displays on the Air are not necessary for any kind of product quality or cost reason and are simply below-par for what you can get on similarly priced Windows laptops. 100% artificial product line anchoring.
- The idea that there was no such thing an OLED display that was “good enough for a MacBook Pro” before 2026 is absurd.
In what regard are they falling behind? There are lighter laptops, sure. Are there lighter laptops with the same performance, or the same battery, the same ergonomics, the same build quality, or the same screen quality?
Gaming laptops they've never competed at all. Windows laptops offer far more form factors with easily upgradeable hardware. One of the only places Apple has an advantage is their chipsets. However, Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X chips have significantly closed the gap on Apple's ARM based M-chips.
I just got a 16" MacBook Pro with an M5 pro chipset and its total pig compared to my 15.6" HP ZBook Power G8.
The only area I can see where Apple is still holding their own is their UI/UX has always been buttery smooth compared to Windows or Linux. Not a fan the new liquid glass, but its still a very smooth running UI regardless.
I pretty much daily use a MacBook Air and an arm windows laptop costing about half the price. I use the MacBook Air at home for administrative and basic tasks, but the arm laptop is actually useful and runs software that I need... MacBooks at this point are just like luxury cars they have way more features than they need and are polishing areas that appear good but not necessarily are good for everyday requirements.
What is the battery life of your windows laptop which is half the price? What is the screen quality? What is the single and multi core performance? Does it beat even the macbook neo on even one of these metrics? At the same cost?
True. But I'm cautiously optimistic based on their track record of not shipping dud MacBooks (on the thermal and battery life front) since the switch to Apple Silicon. The Touch Bar/butterfly keyboard era of MacBooks was a total disaster. The chassis design didn't fit the hot and power hungry 14 nm Intel CPUs + generally poor reliability.
When they introduced the Apple Pencil and people were like “haha it’s a stylus”, the thing was decidedly NOT a stylus (it actually couldn’t be used to control some parts of the UI). It was an actual digital pen, something that used to be specialized and expensive external hardware, and it worked beautifully with the iPad. It was literally “stylus but GOOD”. I saw it and thought “people will make memes about this, but Apple totally gets it”.
When they introduced the Vision Pro, VR was just kind of shit. Bulky, ugly, uncool. Vision Pro tried to resolve some of the issues, but it was still kind of half-assed. Like they wanted to have a VR device but couldn’t actually make it work. Good resolution, but not great. Vergence-accomodation conflict not addressed. Still bulky and ugly. Isolation kind of addressed (with the AR-ish UX and the “see-through” display), but not enough.
Now we got the foldable iPhone and a touchscreen MacBook.
Foldable phones are still awfully delicate and the whole concept doesn’t have a clear “killer” use case. There’s no new UX, no new features, it’s just an iPad Mini in a marginally smaller device that’s expensive as hell. Apple didn’t even try to address the obvious shortcomings, they just built the same stupid thing everyone else is failing to sell.
Touchscreen laptops still wobble, they still get covered with fingerprints, they’re still uncomfortable and there’s still no meaningful UX. This thing doesn’t even try to address any of that. Their marketing images literally just show hands hovering above the keyboard and touching the screen for no good reason. They’ve been mocking touchscreen laptops for years now and now they release one like it’s the most obvious thing ever. 1984 vibes.
> Now we got the foldable iPhone and a touchscreen MacBook.
And the HomeView, which also feels like it lacks a clear “killer” use case.
Maybe I’m just not the intended audience for any of these products, but I’m also starting to wonder if Apple are throwing things at a wall and hoping something will stick.
Yes, but that could change. The hardware itself would certainly be capable. And a POS system can also be cloud based, although not ideal. For hotels, these systems are already cloud based, but then the display is a bit small instead.
So, for a commercial POS system to work, you’ll need a home view and an iPhone in its vicinity to work? Why not just use an iPad? I see loads of places using iPads or even just iPhones.
Tim Cook and his lieutenants were decidedly running on fumes for the last 2-3 years. That's how long these products take to plan and design so that's what we're seeing right now; the last of the Cook era is being released now. Wait for 2-3 years for Ternus and his gang to start doing their work in hardware; on the software side they've already reversed the direction and its hopefully getting better.
It took Cook ~7 years to get Vision Pro out the door. Refreshes? A year or two is usually fine. Entirely new products, not so much. This home stuff has been cooking for about a decade and you can bet HomeView was there in the beginning.
Apple nowadays feels like it’s rudderless and grasping at everything for $$$, in turn giving up on their OG design principles.
First Liquid Glass, then the 17’s design, then ads and ecosystem subscription bloat, then Duo/HomeView, and now the touchscreen Mac. Jobs is rolling in his grave.
How else would they get consoomers to keep buying?
I am a dev with a m1 air 16gb and I have 0 reason to update yet, it's been 6 years now, laptops are solved for 90% of people, they need to introduce gimmicks to create demand
Because the M6 Pro and Max were cancelled. So their alternatives were to either sandbag the base MacBook Pro by leaving it on the M5, which wouldn't make much sense if M6 exists, or wait to release these new Pros until the M7 line is available. Since both of those seemed like a bad plan, they went with this one.
I'm all for product line-up simplicity. But the story goes that M6 generation isn't getting Pro/Max/Ultra chips, so only lower-end MBP and consumer SKUs get M6 generation. Seems odd for a redesigned MBP to not get fresher chips. Presumably the M7 generation will get the full chip lineups next year on the second-gen 2 nm process.
The lesson Cook too from that was "don't let it happen" and that's why Apple gave Vision Pro game devs the middle finger saying there would be no precision controllers and then charging $3500-$4500 so that it couldn't possibly be confused with Quest and its gaming focus. Apple wanted Excel and Zoom, not Beat Saber. It got neither, selling less well than Nintendo's 1995 Virtual Boy (no shit.)
Foldables are somewhere between 10 and 15 percent of Samsung flagship sales. It's foolish to underestimate them because Silicon Valley was all using slabs. The rest of the world isn't so prudish and after sleeping around some many settled on foldables and have been using them for many generations. Moving 10-15% of your high-end sales into an ultra-high-end is a huge win.
That’s not a killer use case, that’s just running two apps next to each other. There are tons of phones and tablets that can do that.
I want to know why I want my phone to cost twice as much and have a dozen delicate moving parts in order to fold. Like the movie quote: “sell me this pen”. I’m waiting for someone to sell me a folding phone. I thought Apple would be able to do it, but they haven’t even tried.
Use an iPad. For the price of a duo you can purchase an iPad Air and an iPhone, even more screens, you can run even more apps next to each other. And the iPad can extend its screen to a normal display if you want to run even more apps.
Does anyone use/like touch on their windows (linux?) laptops? I've never really been drawn to wanting to do that. My mouse is far more accurate and doesn't block my view. But maybe it's just because I don't have it and I would find tons of uses for it. Also, I don't love the idea of putting fingerprints all over my screen. I guess I can understand for testing iOS/iPad apps but past that I just don't see myself wanting to use that.
Then again, it really doesn't matter to me at all what the screen looks like or what features it has, I use my MBP docked 99% of the time with the screen closed, to the point that my next computer will almost certainly be a Mac Studio and I'll just use my MBP on the rare occasions I need it on the go.
Not me personally, but my wife does. She will not buy a laptop unless it has touch screen. "So get an iPad" everyone tells her.
No, you don't get it. She wants the keyboard, she wants a first class desktop experience, and she wants a touch screen.
Watching her work is... different. She mostly uses her laptop on her lap, on the couch, scrolling and "clicking" with touch... and when she needs to type something she slides it back slightly, and types. Almost never uses the track pad.
This is how my 8-year-old works on her school Chromebook. And all of the kids at her school that I've seen using laptops are similar. Touch the screen to interact, type on the keyboard. I think they're just wired to believe every screen should be touchable and go with whatever is easiest for them in the moment.
Exactly. Why on Earth would they default to touching something away from the screen that's an imperfect map to it when they can just touch the thing they want directly? I've seen so many people saying they don't understand and would never use a touchscreen on a laptop, and I just have to think they've not really been around non-technical adults or children.
For interacting with a UX that's designed around keyboard and mouse? I get how it's intuitive to reach out and touch something you can see, but in terms of much of the UX it doesn't make any sense.
You lose control without a desktop and mouse. I can't even begin to count the number of times I got hit with a dark pattern where an app steers me in a direction that I can't click out of because on touch interfaces, you have less control.
Keyboard and mouse don't give you any more autonomy over the application developers state machine.
I'm not sure I understand the claim of "being in control". The UX is different, sure, often. But that's not "control" over the design of the application.
I feel so constricted and frustrated when I have to use my phone. I often even put things off until I can get back to my computer.
On a touchscreen, I can tap. That's it. Select? Tap. Move? Tap. Highlight? Tap. The only one that makes sense is draging for moving, but even that's a pain in the butt because it often misinterprets the tap+hold duration that's necessary before it works. When I'm editing text (navigating, cut-n-paste, etc.), it gets what I want wrong more often than it gets it right, I mean like 80/20.
With the phone, they had a green field to design an entirely new UX for touch interfaces, so there's no legacy to blame.
Sure they do, with KB/M against a browser app you can open the dev console, you can inspect element, you can do all sorts of things that you can't do in a native app for touchscreen only.
Browser developers implemented the dev console there. You are not reaching it ”just because you have kb/m”. You can reach dev tools as easily via touch on a pc with touch support.
Exactly. I was planning to write these reasons but I refrained because the use cases are endless. It boils down to the fact that you can more easily escape the current context for something else.
Huh that's really interesting because my 12 year old has been using a school-provided chromebook for 3 years now and she and all her peers almost NEVER use the touchscreen, they use the trackpad almost exclusively. And I've watched her using her ipad too, and she uses the touchscreen when she's in (her words) "that kind of app" but if she's in Google Docs she's 100% trackpad.
I wonder if by the time she's 12 she'll switch over more and more. I suspect that the trackpad is just a little too disconnected in her brain for now, especially since we don't really do a lot of screens / laptops. I don't think pinching to zoom and scrolling quickly and tapping things far away from where the cursor is will go away easily though.
Yes unless you've seen nontech people use a touchscreen you won't get the appeal.
Some people don't intuitively use trackpads so they'll use a mouse and if they discover touchscreens that becomes a feature that needs to come with any laptop after that.
Yea, it's pretty funny seeing all the posts here from people who cannot fathom why a product like this exists.
It's pretty eye opening really. If it weren't for seeing someone close to me do it, I'd be in the same camp, wondering who in their right mind would use their laptop like that.
I've seen someone close to me do it, and I still don't understand. I've asked her to explain why she fumbled around trying to perform a simple cursor move instead of moving the mouse, and I got a vague "it's easier" (it wasn't easier).
Same here. I couldn't understand it until like you and the comments before, saw younger generation all thought screens by default should be touchable, and other people casually scroll on the display and then return to keyboard for typing.
I bought a Thinkpad X1 Carbon a couple of years ago for my linux laptop and had been using it for months before I realized when I was wiping a smudge off of the monitor that it was a touch display! It was quite the surprise. I have yet to find it of any value.
I had the same thing happen to me with a company issued HP laptop years ago. There were like a dozen of us in a meeting at the time and it blew our minds lol It was basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Goz0PnhEg8.
Yes. I have my dock/taskbar on the side and to switch between apps it's like having a small touchbar I actually know the functions of at any time. When I want to scroll too or tap quickly on something on the other side of the screen, it's often more worth to lift my fingers away from the keyboard to touch the screen without even moving the pointer. But if you're not used to it you probably don't see the burden of moving your pointer away to then bring it back to the center of the screen.
Another possible use is when I want to show some page or content to someone, I always prefer manipulating it with my fingers, instead of "remotely" control it from the trackpad and a mouse.
And if it has stylus support it's cool for drawing (like my current laptop) but Macs do not have a hinge suited for that I think (no 360° support and their focus on a "weak hinge" for the weird and useless obsession from tech content creators of being able to lift the hinge with one finger, something I actually not really value because I sometimes wish that the hinge was stronger and sometimes weaker).
Finally there are also multitouch apps like the piano shown on the presentation and iPad apps I guess, but on macOS I think this matters less (Mac apps are not made with this in mind at all, iPad apps are limited).
In my limited experience providing tech support for family members with touchscreen laptops, it's awful. The touch-targets are mostly designed for mouses, so they're easy to miss. Your screen gets filthy. Moving from keyboard to screen and back is tiring.
I'm sure there are good use-cases, but IMO everyday average-home-user computing is not one of them.
I can’t be the only one who recoils in horror at the thought of TOUCHING THE SCREEN! It’s like going to the toilet and not washing your hands after. I’m sure people do it, but..ew.
Can’t be any worse than the contents of the food they’re ordering. I mean, nobody goes to McDonalds expecting to leave healthier than when they arrived.
I didn't think of it before but now I won't be able to avoid thinking about it. I got to carry one of those rubber styluses whenever I go to fast food places now. :/
Unless there is some immunity problem in your body, this will only make you sicker over time. Your body handles random bacteria just fine. It doesn’t handle being prevented from experiencing any dangerous interactions for 5 years straight, then trying to fight off an infection with a severely undertuned immune system.
Touch things with your hands. Your body literally needs it to be healthy. Avoiding it ONLY makes you sicker in the end.
I mean its not like I dont touch anything. Its just that the workflow for mcdonalds is touch touchscreen -> pick up food that you hold with your hands -> consume said food with potential bacteria now on the food. This wouldn't be the case for sit down fork and knife dining.
I totally agree with exposing immune system...but at the same time, I guess I am weak enough that there is still downtime in the aftermath when I go out into the city(especially during seasonal transitions and when visiting busy packed rooms).
You don't have to have the other extreme of touching every dirty spot especially in a org like mcdonalds which is more likely than not to have people who dont respect basic hygiene. At the same time you dont need the extreme of not touching anything. There is a middle ground.
well i have a couple of laptops at work that are dedicated to programming/test software.
A touch screen would be actually better than a laptop, but android tablet won't cut it (we make some of the test hardware so are in control of the drivers, but for most of it we don't)
As a primary/only mode of use: oh hell no, it's awful. It's too far away from your hands, the ergonomics suck.
As an occasional "pinch to zoom that thing centered on my fingers, and adjust it to show what I want to someone 10 feet away" tool: it's fantastic. I could learn the key combo, but "use two fingers" is dramatically easier to remember and control.
Or to guide someone through something on screen, you can just tap it rather than having them mouse to precisely the control you meant. (yes this is often a terrible idea for teaching, but not everyone has fine motor control and sometimes there's random interruptions from other software - having them push those away can make it harder for them to learn/remember the actual goal)
Or for signing your name on a document, or anything else even slightly related to drawing.
Or if it's propped up on your chest in bed and your hands are naturally more comfortable on the screen than the keyboard (which is far too close).
Or if it's dark or you're at a low angle and can't read the keys.
It doesn't cost much, doesn't influence the display much, and is very useful occasionally. A great hardware feature to have IMO.
> As an occasional "pinch to zoom that thing centered on my fingers, and adjust it to show what I want to someone 10 feet away" tool: it's fantastic. I could learn the key combo, but "use two fingers" is dramatically easier to remember and control.
Perhaps, but on a Mac you can already do this via the touch pad.
Linux and Windows touchpad hardware and software is significantly more widely varying, usually ranging from "good lord, did any human ever try this?" to "I hate it but it's usually functional", with only a few outliers in the "this does what I expect" realms. Touch screens on the other hand have a 1:1 mapping for everything, and very nearly all of them support 5+ fingers (not just 1 or 2), so they almost always work like you expect. (... when they work at all on Linux)
I have used Surface laptops for years and touch is a definite nice-to-have. I especially like having it when diagramming and designing. Paired with the Surface Pen is can really unlock a lot of digital whiteboarding experiences.
But based on the Ad, they did not show own usage and it doesn't look like the hinge is 180. If that's correct, Apple went absolutely against its own beliefs for UX/UI.
Writing on a laptop screen with a pen is kind of a crappy experience. The screen position is not rigid enough for that to be comfortable. It “bounces” as you write.
Windows benefits from a touchscreen more often on something like a diagram where you'll be panning around up/down/left/right, zooming, etc because the trackpad situation isn't very good.
I've never felt the need for a touchscreen when e.g. using Miro because I can scroll and all directions and zoom intuitively on the Mac's trackpad.
Eh. I don't think the Macbook's trackpad is that good. It's better sure, but it's still not as intuitive panning or rotating over the image directly on a touch screen. And it's still useless for drawing.
For a long while, my home laptop was a Chromebook Pixel. It had touch and a retina-quality screen when both those things were novel.
I found the touch useful for momentary interactions, like buttons. It's quicker and easier to reach up and hit NEXT than it is to find the cursor, move it to the button, and click.
Definitely don't use it nearly as much as on a phone, but it is useful for surfing.
I had the same experience. You need both the trackpad and the touchscreen they are complementary and great for different use cases. I've always thought chromebook pixel was a product ahead of its time, and time is confirming it seeing how many later laptops (specially apple) has ended up adopting many of its features.
To me it’s something that Apple could be providing for almost zero cost with zero downside to people who don’t want to use it and they’ve just refused to do so for almost no reason.
Odd feature omissions in Apple-land get debated endlessly just because there are so many random things that Apple arbitrarily decides you can’t do, and the marketing excuse we get is that they’re being intentional or holistic.
Not a HUGE usecase, but when reading a longer text, webpage or something, I like to put my palm around the edge of the display, fingers from behind, use thumb for scrolling.
But I also only ever bought 2-in-1s. Not an obvious “must have” for me, but I prefer closing it “the other way around”, holding laptop in panorama rotation, when reading a pdf or something. I really don’t like reading longer texts on laptop opened in a typical “clamshell” way.
My work laptop has a touchscreen.
I use it so rarely that I keep forgetting it has one and every time I clean the screen with my fingers I get confused for a couple of seconds and then I remember.
I'm not the target for this particular product either and you and I use our MBPs in pretty much identical ways. I will say though, if the laptop's hinge allowed reverse clamshell like the Yoga, then I would consider the premium for a feature I would rarely use. I like the idea of a tablet, but any time I'm seated with one, I'm either doing something I'd do on my phone or doing something that I'd rather be doing on my computer running a desktop OS.
Unlike you I don't see myself switching to the Studio or Mini. My MBP has been extremely performant and its capability of on the go work makes it the perfect product IMO!
The set of people who use convertible laptops in tablet mode seems tiny. It’s one of those things that looks like a great idea but doesn’t pan out in real life. Everyone uses it once, says “cool” and never uses it again. 13” tablet that weighs as much as a laptop is not a great form factor.
100%. My POV is really just "if I could fold my MBP into a tablet without any compromise, and that feature costed an extra couple hundred more than an equally specced non-touch MBP, I probably would go for it and barely use it"
Apple could do this by allowing you to run macOS on an iPad. Magic Keyboard is detachable and doubles as a cover/case. Without it, it's a tablet. With it, it's a laptop with reasonable compromises. SoCs in some iPads are the same as in some MacBooks. It's just software that's letting it down.
I got a 24" all in one computer with a touch screen because the kids were into drawing on the computer. The kids managed to scratch it up somehow, they had a stylus and I think the tip broke.
Anyway that experience made me think that touching a super high image quality screen will only lead to heartbreak. Better to use a cheap screen if you want to touch a lot.
I've used a few touch laptops. First one was a chromebook 9-10 years ago, and even then I got great use of the touchscreen just doing web browsing or navigating my files/google drive or scrolling through ebooks.
Always enjoyed touchscreens on my laptops. Nice thing is, you can just ignore it when you don't want it. It doesn't affect battery life, or thinness, or brightness, or clarity provided the implementation is good; it's just a bonus input method. I'll never say no to a laptop offering a touch option.
Probably a hot take reading the comments, but the touchscreen is great for scrolling and reading vs doing it in the trackpad. If you have the laptop in your lap, the hand and arm position to scroll in the trackpad is very unnatural. Reading/browsing using your thumbs on the screen borders is a great experience. This is even more noticeable if you try to work on planes.
It’s on my X1 Thinkpad. I find it more convenient to use the mouse as that’s where my hands are naturally and a habit.
However I have noticed that when I am dictating more using typeleas or whisperflow I use the touchscreen more as it’s more faster and has a good flow if you wanted speed
I'm working on a very niche sports scoring app and designed it to have nice, clickable buttons. But when trying it out in the field one of the officials had a touch-screen laptop, and it was pretty nice for clicking/tapping to enter finishers of a race in order. So much so that I reworked the rest of the UI to allow for touch.
It's not a tablet-doable thing, really, and I don't really want to take the effort to get it in an app store. But adding touch-able buttons made it a bit nicer UI overall, so I'm glad I did it. Now this person, and anyone else, can also use it with a touch screen if so desired.
I've been an enthusiast for whiteboarding, diagramming and handwriting, and had several Work HP Tablets and 360s, for several years I found good use taking notes in OneNote (specifically) for in-person meetings, for any other use like video conferences (which every meeting is now), giving presentations on screen-share, using office tools, etc, they just aren't convenient and are more prone to activating the wrong element with inadvertent touch. I write notes on paper and scan them for archive. This Mac Book doesn't fold flat which really should make it a non-starter unless Apple has a use-case I can't think of.
I have a Windows laptop with touchscreen and pen support and I like it (HP Omnibook, Lunar Lake). My top use case is probably holding the hinge of the laptop in a way that one thumb can reach the screen, and I scroll with it. Revolutionary I know! Sometimes reaching up and tapping a button (large target) is faster than using the touchpad. Signing documents with the pen. A 360° hinge helps, too, for tent mode and everything in between. Touch is easier on an airplane when space is tight for my arms.
I can and do live without it on other devices (my desktop PC), but it's a nice addition that should just be standard equipment everywhere.
I worked at MS when they were putting out win 8, so I'm maybe biased. I enjoyed the touch interface laptops but I'll fully acknowledge that in my case they were making up for a bad touchpad experience.
Every once in a while when I'm not in my right mind I reach out to my MBP screen and almost begin to pinch zoom something until I notice and recoil at the horror of potential fingerprints. This tells me that 1) we're all now smartphone-brained and this is the new default and 2) there's no fucking way I'm going to consciously want this.
Non-touchscreen laptops are an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
I dislike fingerprints too much to feel that temptation, but when using a phone I do feel a kind of dread every time I want to select some text or precisely position a cursor.
I’ve had a few and liked it- is nice to be able to move my finger straight to a point on the screen and do something - is faster than using a mouse in some contexts
the convertible laptops are great, flip the screen back and use it like a big e-reader/ipad, if the macbook pro worked that way with full pencil compatibility (and being able to run all ipad apps) it'd have been amazing
I use a stylus to take lecture notes and solve problem sheets on my ThinkPad X13. Xournalpp works ok, Ubuntu 24.04, though there was a mutter bug that I had Sol patch out. Only better than paper because of data storage, honestly carrying a notebook is lighter than the usb c second display I use.
When I have it folded, it's intuitive to use the touchscreen like a tablet. But I wouldn't want to run the i3 setup I have on my desktop. The Wayland UI bandwagon and huge touch targets are for something after all.
It's not a huge thing. My Thinkpad has a touchscreen, a clickable trackpad, and 3 buttons on top of the trackpad. The only thing it doesn't have is a trackpoint in the middle of the keyboard.
I use the trackpad most of the time, even for right and middle clicks (2/3 finger click), but I prefer the buttons when I have to select, and the middle button when I need to paste repeatedly. I don't use the touchscreen much, but it's the easiest way to swipe between virtual desktops on Linux. The touchscreen works well with the laptop turned "inside out" (my kid's laptop does that). Screen doesn't get smudges because of its texture. The example shown mentions the desktop swipe, and the piano keys are for setting up a chord, not playing a tune, both of which make sense (and try to set up a chord without multi-touch).
It is more a nice extra than truly useful. Especially if trackpad or keyboard are starting to have issues. On occasion it can be easy to just fat-finger an onscreen button or on a long read just gently scroll. On videos they can be paused by tapping the play window. This is probably a step in their grand scheme to further merge Mac and ios together.
A fun aside is a New York Times reporter pulled up some drawing app on his phone at a holiday party to show my kid and was visibly shocked when my kid just started creating using the on screen icons before the guy could even start tutoring him. I don't recall if the Microsoft thing had any intro or demo that guided him on the tools a little or if he just absorbed it.
I had one a decade or so ago and I did use it because it was there, sometimes. But it’s not a feature I would ever go out of my way to get or pay extra for - the only thing I was looking forward to here is the oled so guess I’ll find out if I will use it.
But it sucks to use application designed for mouse with touch.
So it's not that "touch is bad UX modality" it's "applications should be designed for touch as first class citizen" and by design I mean _proper_ design as in from the ground up not just prettier colors and slihgtly tweaked layout.
Scrolling is a great reason for touchscreens on laptop, you can just swipe and down on your screen which is much more natural than two finger gesturing or grabbing a scrollbar.
My boss wont have a non touchscreen laptop purely for ease of scrolling up and down reports and around spreadsheets
It's expectation. Think of all the screens in your life that you interact with and when you can't touch them it feels broken (at least to me). So I don't use my laptop as a tablet but when some dialog pops up I want to touch the cancel button. Or I'm helping someone with a task and reaching to move a window directly is natural.
> when some dialog pops up I want to touch the cancel button
I have never had this. I don't think this is the expectation among people using laptops either? Pressing escape is much faster, doesn't obscure the screen, and doesn't require me to aim.
I use it constantly. No one actually holds their hands up to the screen for extended periods of time. But touching the screen to click a button can be more efficient than tabbing or mousing to it. Especially if the laptop is on your lap.
Scrolling through long docs is also comfortable with touch if it’s on your lap or a flat surface directly in front of you. You scroll with the thumb while your hand/arm rests comfortably.
I've had it on a few laptops, I always disable it. My current work laptop is a Thinkpad which doesn't even have an option in the BIOS to disable its touchscreen, I had to write a udev rule to do it.
I dislike it very much. It's never what I want, and in the cases where I have it, it generally only gets used accidentally (e.g. when one of my kids pokes the screen). It's not ergonomic for normal use.
The only reason I would want touch is if the screen would fold and rotate in order to turn it into a tablet. If Apple made this in a 12-inch format (like their old 12-inch MacBook I'd buy it immediately.
No idea why anyone would want a laptop form factor with a touch screen; seems like an RSI nightmare. Especially since you can already pinch-and-zoom and do other gestures with the existing touch pads!
> No idea why anyone would want a laptop form factor with a touch screen; seems like an RSI nightmare.
I have no idea how this keeps getting repeated. No one with a touchscreen laptop is just hovering their arms in front of the screen like a zombie for hours.
It’s another input. You use it when it makes sense. For some, that’s pretty frequent. For others like you, maybe never.
I found it was something I didn't appreciate much until I had a touchscreen laptop. It doesn't fully replace the mouse or touchpad, but it is convenient enough of the time that I miss not having it. It also is a much bigger benefit when you're using the laptop by itself. But when reading something on the couch, it's helpful to scroll with a touchscreen, and it's handy to quickly interact with modal dialogs.
I actually disable touch screen in bios on my Dell XPS13 because I don't like touching it accidentally but then I'm not the target market for a touchscreen laptop.
I guess for the most part if you like this you'll use it and if you don't you'll just ignore it.
I use a Wacom Cintiq with touch, it is only useful for testing during mobile gamedev because it can simulate touch easily without leaving the editor and having to export a build to my phone or tablet. Quite an expensive trick. I wouldn’t purchase it again if it broke. (I would buy the same model without touch and save some bucks)
I had a surface pro and later a surface book, and i think i can count on 1 hand the number of times i found touch to be useful. Might just be windows fighting me all the way, but i have since moved over to using Macs for work and never missed touch at all.
I use it (for choosing tools) with a drawing program and a stylus (for the actual drawing) and it makes things quick/interactive --- no Apple Pencil support, and no ability to lay the entire device down flat means it doesn't suit my needs.
Something wrong with your computer. My 11 year old XPS13 with touch screen has worked fine in Linux ever since I got it. And same with my Surface Pro 2 running Ubuntu.
My wife loves her surface book specifically for the touch. No touch is what held her back from going Mac. She's a teacher and is constantly making assets and stuff in Canvas and those sort of things.
Oh how far we've come. Steve Jobs in 2010 stated [1]:
> Steve Jobs told a crowd at an Apple event in 2010 that the company did “tons of user testing” on putting touchscreens on MacBooks and decided against it because, he said, “It doesn’t work. It’s ergonomically terrible.”
> While previewing Mac OS X Lion in 2010, Jobs explained the main issue was comfort, saying, “After a short period of time, you start to fatigue, and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off.”
Design is the art of compromise. A laptop works. Physical keyboards are better than onscreen keyboards. Laptops with detachable tablets end up with a heavier screen so the base has to be heavier so it doesn't tip over.
I honestly don't know what the use case for touchscreen Macbooks really is. OLED? Sure. Why not? But touch? Who is this for?
I want to argue that there’s been 15 years of UI experimentation since then. Occasional use is okay, but should be absolutely optional. As long as we don’t all get scammed to use touch as the primary UI like we did in cars.
I've had a touch screen Lenovo for 10 years. It was a huge mistake and I never use it. It's uncomfortable and doesn't work with laptop interfaces or form factor.
All the cons are real (which Apple figured out in the aughts), but enshittification at a corporate bureaucracy is inevitable without a strong person in charge.
Every time I hand my wife my laptop to show her something, her first instinct is to touch the screen to make it scroll. I think for a lot of people, having a device that doesn't respond to touch is weird.
(Like most millennials, she grew up with computers and even works on a desktop every day; there's something about the medium that makes her think "this has a touch screen".)
I bought a laptop for a relative and didn't realise it doesn't have touchscreen. They complained for a day and I often saw them try to touch the screen and then being disappointed it doesn't work. Week later they never mentioned it again and use the laptop just fine.
When I was buying them a second one and asked about touchscreen, they said they don't care anymore for it, so second laptop also was without touchscreen.
I got a Surface laptop/tablet hybrid thingy, which was weird at first to get used to, but actually kind of nice. I mostly got it for notetaking, drawing and 3D work, which it worked very well for, until the machine bricked itself during a Windows Update like a month after the warranty, and now it no longers powers up itself.
While it worked, it was useful for me, mostly the drawing I guess was the most different, as I used to use Wacom tablets for that, but seeing exactly where you draw makes things a lot easier.
If I was still in the market for a laptop, I'd probably again get a touch-based one, as long as it's not Microsoft, as that was the first and last time I bought any Microsoft hardware. Probably not Apple either as the OS and software is such a mess, so probably leaning Asus or Thinkpad with Linux on it, if anything.
I hate it. It's beyond me why people would intentionally smudge their laptop display.
I guess if you have a laptop that functions in tablet mode, it makes sense (I don't love tablet modes either).
Someone called out the surface - which is great with the surface pen. I'll agree this is a great use case. I would say this use case is rarer than the prior use cases where you use your meat sticks.
I don’t have a dedicated tablet, and use a touchscreen laptop that’s “folded back” in lieu of that. It’s not as good but cheaper than two devices. To me it’s inherently a budget tool. An €3300 touchscreen laptop doesn’t really compute.
I bought an expensive Windows laptop with touch and I go so long without every touching the screen it's always a complete shock when someone touches it -- you know, the screen touchers -- and it registers. And for a brief moment I remember that I bought a touchscreen convertible, and then forget it again.
It's neat I guess, but he finger is a terrible mouse, obstructs the screen, and it's super awkward. It is a spec sheet checkbox like so many things where people do the "But it doesn't have this {must have} so it sucks" bit of nonsense, and Apple fell for it.
> Also, I don't love the idea of putting fingerprints all over my screen.
Whenever someone wants to point out something on my screen, I’ve already mentally prepared for the next step of having to wipe the screen, because it’s impossible to point at something without contacting the glass. Apparently.
My daughter, when she pointed something out to me on my laptop screen, ALWAYS touched the screen from the time she could walk. When she was a teenager I asked her repeatedly to please stop touching the screen when she pointed something out, but I gave up.
I used to work regularly on a commuter train with a firm-provided touchscreen ThinkPad. The touchscreen was great on the train because it was faster (for many things) than reaching for the trackpad. And when you're in a sort of cramped sitting position, reaching forward feels natural.
I'm a lawyer by trade and am forced to lean on GUIs with little keyboard-control support. When I code (for pleasure), I don't miss the touchscreen, but I often miss it when I'm trying to read PDFs and Word documents on the go.
It would be interesting to know what ThinkPad model it was. The older ones had pretty small trackpads so they were difficult to reach.
On Macbooks the trackpad is so large that you can reach it even from the sides of the laptop and the two finger scrolling actually works without second thought.
I had one for work a while back that could turn around so the screen faced upward while closed, effectively making it a bulky/heavy tablet. It was convenient for walking over to someone desk and discussing a topic. But it wasn't ground breaking enough for me to ever seek something out like it again. I rarely even open my laptop these days unless I'm in a conference room.
I look for touchscreens when looking for a cheap windows laptop for someone because they tend to be better quality screens (IPS, decent brightness, etc.) instead of some awful TN panel that's barely visible in a well-lit room.
I don't really expect anyone to use it as a touchscreen, but if they do, at least that will work too.
Kids expect all screens to be touch ready. Chromebooks they learn on in schools are touchscreen. It will be a competitive requirement before long, I think.
Getting rid of the fixed keyboard helps a lot (my preferred form factor), but even in the classic laptop form factor is makes a ton of sense IMHO.
There's a lot of small niceties that pile up into a better experience, the sister comments cover a bunch of those, so I'll focus on a macos specific nice point:
iPad and iPhone apps can now get direct touch when running on a laptop, instead of the mouse mode. With this, there is now a perfect platform able to run Mac, iOS and iPad apps outside of the ill-fated Vision Pro.
That's too little to late for me, but I think many will appreciate the benefits.
I've been trying to brainstorm a helpful use case this would bring but I can't think of anything.
I mean just imagine how jarring it is to go from touching the macbook screen to mess with your app to needing to input text. Whether you use the macbook keyboard, or the on screen keyboard, it's just kinda rough.
It seems like there’s an audience among older people and possibly children, but I don’t see a situation in which a professional at least would really or want a touchscreen. Do you really want the oil from your fingers constantly smudging up your screen, particularly a glossy one? Unless it comes with a pair of complimentary Apple windshield wipers, it's gonna get gross fast.
The only situation I could see it being useful in is if it came with a pressure-sensitive pen, so you could use it for sketching and drawing. But even then, that would only really work well if the screen folded all the way around, so it would sit flush against the base or if it opened 180 degrees, so you could lay it flat on a table without it wobbling around on a hinge.
I feel the same but I noticed that the boomers and Gen Z both reach for the screen when I am showing them something and they want to interact with it(i.e. scroll a page or close a window).
Maybe the the intuitive and natural way of interaction is touch and the generations between the boomers and the Gen Z are the only ones who command the skillset to use computers in any other way.
This is exactly why I'm considering it. It sounds super useful to feel the drag gestures while developing. Same with website testing when they are meant to be used on a phone/tablet mostly.
Oh in university it's a godsend having something you can just run PDF Annotator on and draw with a pen directly on your laptop. (Lenovo 20KK user here, got it for 200€ at a hamvention used, even came with a 4G modem)
I think instead they should have had dynamic keycaps like this: https://fluxkeyboard.com. Then we could have helper icons for shortcuts per app when you hold the cmd key down. But it would obviously be much cooler if all the keys had the ability to change their look rather than just the top row.
Apple is not what it used to be… We see it in the hardware AND the software.
It used to be: think different
It used to be: It just works…
Now we got “apple intelligence” and subscriptions all over the place and also the lock-in feels stronger over time. Don’t even get me started that one can’t easily replace the battery oneself. They gradually convinced us that reduced repairability is fine.
I got my first MacBook Pro in 2006… things were quite different back then.
Anyway, I’ve decided I wanted to get away from BigTech a while ago. Apple is the hardest part for me. They used to have this annoyance-free usability that I loved so much. iPhone Duo, Touchscreen on the Mac, liquid glass, visionPro, etc. are all valid things to go after and I don’t think these are bad things per se. But it is not what I care about. And clearly the focus has shifted away from the values I used to share with this company about what constitutes a good product.
I took the hit on the ownership/control side because their products were so ‘seamless’.
Now I hope the Framework and Fairphone (with eOS) have matured enough to not regret when I am getting off the Apple-train. I don’t expect a frictionless experience - it just has to be sufficiently annoyance-free. I’ll happily take some rough edges in exchange for greater control and ownership.
“Unfortunately” their products are really sturdy and it will take a while until my M3 MacBookAir and iPhone 14 need to be replaced ^^
What's the point of a touch display if the laptop doesn't have a 360 hinge !? The interaction looks very awkward and unless they stiffen the hinge compared to previous model, the thin screen will keep tilting backwards.
I’m not going to upgrade to get this, however given most devices are touch screen it has become almost expected. Sometimes you just want to move something with your fingers even if it’s not the main input method.
Personally I find I miss touch screen after using my iPad and Magic Keyboard for extended periods and then switching back to the laptop. I mostly use the keyboard but it’s very nice to be able to scroll, position things, etc
My wife sits on the couch, "indian style", with a laptop in her lap angled at about a 45 degree. She holds the edges of it with her arms, and brings the keyboard up to her stomach kinda...
Its hard to describe but its surprisingly comfortable looking and allows her to tap her way through everything without actually having to hold the screen up. If she lets go, the hinge keeps it up. If she needs to type, she just skoots it back back slightly
"In addition, a newly designed hinge provides greater stability while using Touch, and advanced video stabilization automatically smooths the camera feed in real time while using Touch on a video call."
Their demo example for the touch interface is piano keys? That's a 2010 Scott Forstall level of skeuomorphism that doesn't translate well for a laptop screen because it's not convenient.
The hands are also almost in the exact same image Steve Jobs had on a slide during the iPad keynote showing touch on a laptop is not ergonomic. It's poetic, almost.
Jobs routinely shit-talked product features and categories that Apple later went into, including both phones and tablets. People complained about it when he was alive, but now we’re asked to fondly recall how consistent he was?
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work," Jobs said at the company's "Back to the Mac" event in 2010. "Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off," Jobs continued. "It doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible."
Well my arms didn't get longer, that's for sure. Also MacOS and software made for MacOS doesn't optimize for touch targets unlike something that will be distributed on iOS/iPadOS.
Not that novel. The first ergonomics studies on touchscreens were done in the seventies. In 2010, touchscreens were already sophisticated technology and well established in many settings.
I got my first laptop with a digital pen and touchscreen in 2008 or so. They were rare back then, but nothing groundbreaking new. The touchscreen did suck though.
This is the one thing I'm rather excited to use the touchscreen for. Would be genuinely useful to me right now. Beyond that though...... I can't see using Touch much.
I hope this sells well enough that they might later go the EXTRA step to a Pencil supported 360-hinged MBP.
I'm a hardcore iPad Pro + Pencil lover. And
I'm very tired of carrying both a MacBook for the full OS + keyboard, PLUS a whole separate tablet for sketching, illustration, annotation, etc.
I think there was a modifier key + click and drag to simulate a pinch, so at least some gestures can be simulated. But since one is developing for the mobile device, it makes sense to tether the device and send builds to test out on the target device itself.
From past experience (not for quite a few years, but some at least): oh heck no. I loved simulating locally, but the deeply limited touch handling made it infeasible a lot of the time. The dev -> install -> run -> dev cycle is dramatically faster in the emulator, and you don't need to have multiple devices nearby if you're building custom UI for each size.
Macbook Pros attempt to cater to every slim use case simultaneously, with the idea that if they can handle a use case someone else can’t, they’ll sell another laptop.
I agree that a piano demo seems like a bad idea. But damn if I don’t daily long for the iOS 6 days where buttons and tappable areas were well defined and there were some fun and whimsy to the interface. As compared to the flat unintuitive desolate landscape of recent years. I would rather have a big animated cassette deck in my music player than the current overly polished full page advert I get every time I open the app. At least Forstall and his team cared enough.
As a longtime laptop musician, using the QWERTY keyboard to play notes in the absence of a MIDI controller is infinitely preferable to this goofy demo.
Apple better have some better use examples than THAT.
Reminds me of that stupid DJ demo of the touch bar. Did any DJ actually use that in practice? Well if they do they better hold on to their now vintage MacBook.
Yeah, piano playing was a bad example. There’s a reason MIDI keyboard manufacturers try so hard to replicate the weighted feel of a real piano. Your fingers need feedback.
An interesting aside here, there is no one, true style of action for keyboard instruments and no one, true type of feedback.
I have a good 88-note hammer action stage piano. I love it for acoustic pianos and it's OK for electric pianos (Rhodes, Wurlitzer) but it sucks a bit for organ, clavinet and synths.
I've seen people play Hammond really, really well on a weighted keybeds but it's much easier to just plug a second cheap(er) synth action controller in for organ parts.
I've never met anyone that really liked playing a tablet screen though. :P
How is it convenient? A pro workflow is not holding your arm with the finger up in the air trying to avoid accidental taps, when you can get a small 25 key akai midi controller for a 100 usd. And it's easy to carry around and comes with velocity-sensitive keys and pressure-sensitive pads.
I have a Macbook Pro 14 first gen and I love this machine but watching what Apple is doing lately I think they are starting to loose the plot.
A foldable iPhone, macbooks with touch displays, apple watches constantly listening to your conversations, dropping updates for not so old devices like AWU 1, I understand that I am not a target audience for those products but to me this just speaks a lack of vision for the company and their products. I mean this is one of the most valuable companies in the world with some of the best people working there and this is the best that we can get a foldable iphone and a touch display I don't believe it.
The last keynote also was probably the worst one I ever saw couple of years ago I couldn't wait for keynotes this year I am totally over them we are at the Tron meme scene where one the board member asked what was new in the new OS version and seems to be just the number - [0]
Fwiw, first gen apple products tend to have shorter support windows, and the AI change is legitimately a big technology shift (even if not wonderfully executed) that necessitated more aggressive hardware cutoffs. The first three apple watches and the first SE also had the same 4 year support as the first Ultra. Apple is a remarkably consistent company when it comes to its own habits and behaviors.
I think that's likely the logic they operated from inside. Personally, I agree something like the AWU should have been supported longer because longevity is one of the core defining elements of the premium watch market, and thats the market they chose to enter. To Apple's eyes though these are all still 'gadget-like computers' rather than 'computer-like gadgets' [1], and thus the expectations and culture of the fast moving computer industry dominates.
These are the devices people use all day every day. Iterating on them makes sense.
They are also working on AirPods with vision, released a home hub with display, released AR goggles, releasing GPU heavy servers, creating a framework for AI interfaces, …
Replicator would be nice but here is a more managable list for start:
- Not solderable components so I can upgrade my machine, ok maybe this is too much I will just take an easy to replace battery.
- Longer lasting battery for wearables like watches if the competition can make a battery last 15 days I think Apple can too especially given how efficient the arm chips are in their laptops.
- Some hardware design changes Apple watch is literarily the same design since its launch, not to mention that the Apple watch ultra had different shades of orange for the button and the wheel I mean come on.
- Software wise I really don't mind the new glass design system but I don't understand why I can't have basic features that an intern can push I literally bought and sold the apple watch like 5 times because I just wanted a simple step counter widget I didn't want a third party app a simple step counter widget and they released it this year 2026 a step counter widget maybe it is harder to do than a replicator who knows.
How often do you replace your battery that a once-every-3-years trip to Apple Store and paying for service AND parts $59-$139 is such an inconvenience?
I really want a fridge with easily replaceable condenser, washing machine with easily replaceable bearing, and a Subaru with great access to spark plugs... You still live in era of 2003 phones where battery was accessible via a flap, but at the same time you want a top tier computer in your pocket and waterproofing. You people are ridiculous sometimes.
I want the Mac Pro back. It was depreciated for no valid reason, and has plenty of technical opportunity to expand Apple's presence in the agent VM and inference hardware stack. If Apple is going to renege their stupid decisions, now is a great time to find a place for Apple Silicon in the trillion-dollar AI buildout.
The Mac itself still hasn't proven that it has a place in the future. It's not any more profitable than the iPad in revenue breakdowns, and doesn't come close to the install base of the iPhone. Compared to Windows PCs and Linux servers, Apple has entrenched the Mac as a second-class citizen for traditional computing. Instead of pushing to make macOS an unavoidable flagship operating system, Apple promotes insular API/SDK usage and seemingly leans towards a less-profitable B2C market segment. Tim Cook's obsession over service revenue caused Apple to forfeit the high performance ARM market, which is a shame, since Apple Silicon is quite competitive in ways that the Vision Pro and HomeView will never be.
That's never been Apple's market, B2B is not in their DNA, nor is winning absolute market share. You're asking them to go from being a company that is about something (great consumer experience) to a company that chases profit wherever it can find it.
Once they go down that path, they open themselves up to whatever technology changes and drifts happen in an entirely different market, which right now is going through a tectonic shift with AI. We don't even know what happens in that market in 1-2 years let alone 5 or 10 or more. The business cycles are different, the customers are different, the demands are different. How do you even begin to plan for that?
You're zeroing in on a technical advantage Apple currently has with silicon while ignoring the lack of advantage they have everywhere else in their operation. That'll never happen and it's the antithesis of a half century of company history.
As far as the Mac, it's the truck that does the heavy work so the other platforms like iOS are light [1]. That's been the guiding philosophy, the sandbox it plays within.
> If Apple is going to renege their stupid decisions, now is a great time to find a place for Apple Silicon
Apple's B2C obsession isn't smart. Their service revenue is quite literally deemed illegal and exploitative in several courts, they cannot rely on the App Store and iCloud-style tie-ins forever. The progress that they've made on the A-series chips goes largely unnoticed to a cohort of users that scrolls TikTok and Polymarket. The progress of the M-series chips has not moved the needle on macOS' market share even with 7 years of sales marked down. Right now, they're lining themselves up for the worst of both worlds; being shackled to low-margin B2C products that aren't legally allowed to ammortize costs with lock-in "ecosystem" services. Apple will be forced to make changes if the status-quo continues to punish their business strategy.
So... why not lean into their strengths? iPhone customers will rarely notice fast single-core performance, but devops and enterprises will. Apple fundamentally supports expansion via PCI on Apple Silicon, and their SOCs demonstrably handle Linux, CUDA and Vulkan without any significant bottlenecks. The Mac Pro was 90% of the complete package for a particularly rich type of customer, and Apple refused to invest in the last 10% to uphold a pointless grudge. This stupid decision is why terrible ARM SOCs like Ampere and Grace have dominated the AI buildout even when Apple Silicon destroys them on-paper. Depreciating the Mac Pro is a solipsistic, insane decision that formally abandons Apple's attempts at dominating anything except the prosumer market. This isn't even an Xserve style slip-up, it's a radical steering decision that prevents customers like Pixar from even considering Apple Silicon for a server farm.
> As far as the Mac, it's the truck that does the heavy work
Ok I see where you're going. I think we'd both agree that the PC market is mature and unlikely to grow further, their services revenues aren't looking sustainable long term, and that AI demand is high. Good food for thought!
Some facts to consider tho since I think you're underestimating the apple silicon change:
MacOS market share went from 7.5% (2020) -> 9% (2025)
Mac gross margins are harder to estimate but suggest a change from 24% (2016) [1] -> 41% (2025) [2] if you divide profits from revenues. These exclude services.
PC market profit share is >60%, as in Apple get most of the money made in the PC market.
So the idea that apple silicon didn't really move the needle isn't supported. Apple also cares about profit share far far more than market share. Market share can be a liability because of antitrust and supporting less desirable users and use cases. A few decades ago they chose not to get into the Netbook fad when everyone else was because of this philosophy, so its not new.
Apple is certainly ramping up their server hardware as it seems to be angling to run models on their own silicon, and Xcode cloud is a natural extension of that activity. I'm not sure that suggests selling servers or server capacity though. The end result is the same biz model: the people using this server capacity are still primarily individual customers.
The main question about the AI buildout right now is a ton of money is being invested and the returns on that capital are highly speculative. Everyone is investing, sure, but there's a lot of economic headwinds and its unclear where the value will ultimately accrue. If Apple jumps into something, they tend to do it with a decade-long perspective. What you're arguing for is that Apple should have jumped in early, which regardless of B2B v B2C, is not Apple's style.
If apple were to get into that and leverage their silicon advantage, they'd need to significantly increase their supply of silicon. They're already pretty much at capacity serving B2C, and they typically do big capital investments with places like TSMC to build out the capacity they need for nextgen process. Same with ram, probably even more of a limited resource right now. If they were to jump into enterprise in a big way, it wouldn't just be 'make more chips' it would be drastically increasing their capex to expand capacity, and that takes years of lead time to do. The AI buildout is very new, its really all just in the last 2-3 years. I just don't think they could have delivered on this idea right now, based on what they knew in ~2024 and the capacity they have available. If anything their strategy, whether intentional or not, is looking rather prudent. But another month or two passes and maybe that will change too. Things are changing very fast right now.
It just doesn't feel very "skate to where the puck is headed" to me. Apple is holding on for dear life to a business model that has very little momentum. Apple was ready for the AI buildout, which is what upsets me. The rackmount Mac Pro is the perfect product for Apple to sell datacenter customers, all they need to support are CUDA drivers (which are already ARM/BSD-ready) and some sort of PCIe interconnect. There was no "pivot" that was required, outside of their software policy. Maybe AI was a bubble, but missing out on that capital is a bigger problem than suffering from success a-la Nvidia. When AI hype dies down, there's going to be new markets that Apple has to be ready to capitalize on. AI and GPGPU compute have been good exercises for testing Apple's flexibility, but a lot of those advances are flushed down the toilet on hardware like the Mac Studio, which forces customers into non-scalable Thunderbolt RDMA clusters.
I'd argue the supply chain is a non-issue, too. Apple's chips are a high/low mix, and most of them go to TSMC when they really shouldn't. Apple's A-series SOCs could be manufactured by Intel or Samsung without setting them back too far on fab nodes. Mac chips could remain TSMC products, and Apple could pivot their high-memory SKUs to the Mac Pro form factor instead of forcing it into a non-scalable Studio chassis. That would give them a product that the industry could start to buy again, and they could even offer it as a consumer product if they wanted to thumb up their nose at Nvidia. The current Studio is a sad flagship to sell, reminiscent of the Trash Can form factor with even fewer hardware features.
It's Ternus' choice, and he seems to be open to new ideas. Apple isn't immune to bad decisionmaking though, and I bet that future generations will be confused why the ARM datacenter was dominated by non-entities like Ampere and Nvidia selling low-performance licensed cores.
Exactly what i was thinking, with these decision they are making a quick bucks but in the long term apple will just be another washed and forgetful brand like most of the windows brand, and then what reason to get a macbook ?
They worked so hard to "think different", get a following with people that would willingly spend more for a product inferior technically because it was just bold.
i am the first one to appreciate the direction apple is taking, as a customer it will bring even more competition to the windows laptop market because everything will be similar, but when i put my self in steve jobs shoe, i want to puke.
There's no universe this doesn't negatively affect the UX of the OS for non-touch users. You can't simply support (or rather you can half-arse) new affordances without contorting the rest of the already well worn paths.
It already has, see the massive increase in UI padding in Tahoe and later. Windows and GNOME both sacrificed their UX to support touchscreen laptops years ago, Apple was one of the holdouts before that point.
Density is way down on UI elements for one. OS X used to feel like a Workstation. With every release macOS feels closer to a toy. Touch is great for convenience, but not getting into the weeds with “real” work.
Er… Yes they have. Liquid Glass is awful. It’s not only ugly (that’s preference, though), it has definitely negatively affected the UX. That’s why they’re adding sliders and options and reversal left and right.
Windows did this seemingly by not caring that it's also a touch screen, so not everything in the system is touch-friendly. It's still fine for many situations.
I'm still on Sequoia for this reason. I want a UI optimized for displaying text content and mouse and keyboard control. Mostly keyboard. I definitely don't want the larger border radius on the windows that would seem to be designed for touch.
Isn't that his point though ? Their plan seems to half-ass touch support (i.e. the menu bar, minimize/close buttons, etc. all stay in their current size), so it seems like a waste of hardware to include a touch screen just for very little functionality. If instead they make the UI friendly to fat fingers, they'd very much affect the mouse/trackpad experience.
I can actually see a possibility where this improves UI/UX a bit. One being the removal of some many hover-over UI elements, e.g., the (x) button on notifications do not display unless a mouse is hovering over the notification badge.
So, it may makes things a little easier for some GUI scripting. I can also see the UX improving for some disabilities, but I know that is merely coincidental rather than intentional.
> e.g., the (x) button on notifications do not display unless a mouse is hovering over the notification badge
Same applies to spaces where there's also delay applied before it appears for whatever reason. It would be nice if this fixed (on non-touch Macs as well).
Does that mean you also believe the same to be true for mouse affordances ruining it for keyboard users and vice-versa? Or "touch" is special in this regard?
Mouse affordances don't usually ruin it for keyboard preferrers. Keyboard shortcuts and control are often an afterthought or downright written off because "they can just click" but thats down to laziness or lack of care than some hard and fast rule. However, a keyboard affordance is usually invisible, and a mouse affordance isn't, so they can very happily co-exist without affecting one another. For instance, the Alt modifiers in menus in classic Windows, those have almost no effect at all on anyones ability to click the menu item with a mouse.
Touch affordances and UI does have to be visible, and there is only one screen. So the touch affordances and mouse affordances are mutually exclusive: targets get larger, padding expands, UI gets dumbed down, etc etc.
I can't think of cases where mouse affordances necessarily, intrinsically make things worse for keyboard users.
Of course, there's the extremely common case of keyboard support being half-assed or missing from GUI apps. But that's not mouse affordances making things worse, that's developers just not having the time or inclination to have great keyboard support.
Whereas, touch affordances seem like they'll be a lot more disruptive.
Touch is probably not going to be useful in most contexts, but there are two things that come to mind:
1. Since many iOS apps can run on Apple silicon Macs now, this might be useful for apps where touch matters for more than just clicking buttons.
2. For mobile app developers, you can actually try real touches events on the simulator/emulator while developing and get better sense of how it feels without needing to pull out a physical device.
I have a touchscreen on my Googlebook (I know, early adopter issues galore, but I love mine now). I basically forget I have it most of the time, but every now and then, it's been cool.
Not letting the screen bend back all the way neuters every avantage of touch. Touch interfaces are incredibly frustrating when the thing you are touching doesn't have enough resistance.
I have a limited understanding of local LLMs, but from what I gather 128GB is not enough to match DeepSeek v4 Flash or GPT 6.1 Luna. And these models are so cheap right now. What's the use case besides having your data locally?
"Having your data locally" is definitely the biggest one.
- The general consensus seems to be that the frontier models are kind of (understandably) "benchmaxxed" towards coding benchmarks and have suffered in some other areas like writing, art, etc. Lot of tweaked/specialized models on huggingface
- Getting around the censorship in commercial models
- While local models don't match frontier coding agents, you can run them for multiple 24/7 with a long running goal (The fans in Macs are presumably not built to run 24/7, but this can be mitigated to a considerable extent IME by simply pointing a desktop fan at it, and you can throttle things in software. On the discrete GPU side of things, you can usually get big power savings without much performance impact by throttling the GPU clock; things are usually bottlenecked on memory)
- Even small 27B/35B models are getting darn good, definitely more than powerful enough for classification etc... you don't need 128GB to run them
- Right now, providers like OpenAI are running at huge losses. At some point, they are going to need to turn a profit, at which point they may get significantly more expensive, and "hosting your own" may make more economic sense than it does today -- and be a valuable professional skill, even.
- Even more speculative: perhaps the future for many applications is training and running your own hyper-specialized models. Right now, training your own is nowhere near cost effective on self-hosted hardware vs. renting GPUs
Note: whether any of these use cases are "worth it" is up to the individual. I'm not trying to sell anybody on the idea. I don't personally do much local LLM stuff at the moment, but it's attractive and I've been close to pulling the trigger...
I'm just trying to understand what the particular uses people have for them.
My raw data alone is terabytes, and it takes hundreds of GB sometimes to run very simple analyses. So there's no way I can have a local AI orchestrating the analyses locally.
But I realize some people have different kinds of data. So I'm interested to hear how exactly people use local models.
The point where it'd make sense for me is if someone makes a compact machine with 512 of unified memory in a couple of years and it costs less than a down payment for a house...
It's more "software & gear discussion" than "use cases", admittedly, I think because the people looking for software/gear discussion already have use cases in mind that they're trying to achieve.
While personally I’m not using them for work, just tinkering, 128GB can run qwen 3.8 flash next at q4(~111GB gguf). That model seems to be quite capable from what I’ve read.
It’s quite evident that the api models can and have been nerfed at the provider’s discretion, then there’s the abliteration aspect too(api models refusing what they consider “harmful”) which makes the case for local.
which configs did you wind up going with on the Studio + Air, I'm in a similar boat. Grabbed a 13" 24GB M5 air before the price hike and now wrestling between a M5 Max studio or an overpriced mini.
These are right at the edge of desirable for me right now -- but it's hard to pull the trigger. I'm imagining an M7 Pro with 480 GB/s and therefore an M7 Max 850-900 GB/s. And significantly better GPU speeds as well. If I knew I could get the M7 Max Q2 of next year, especially at 192GB of RAM, I'd wait.
But then you have to compare to buying a GB200, sticking it in a closet and sharing it out in a workgroup and having a lower specced laptop. Decisions..
Notably these chips came out back in March of this year. Today's changes are in the display and form factor but maintaining the same CPU, GPU, and memory specs.
Rumor is that Apple is skipping the M6 Pro and Max chips this year in favor of releasing the M7 Pro and Max sometime next year.
At this point it's pretty certain they've skipped M6 Pro/Max or they'd be a flagship feature of today's laptop.
The odds of > 128GB are very good, AMD have already bumped the Strix Halo to 192GB of RAM and both AMD and Nvidia should have successors to their offerings in 2028 that will compete with the M7 Pro and Max. Both AMD and Nvidia will be using TSMC N2 too so the competition will be ramping up.
Pro tip always get the silver macbooks because they wear out considerably better. On the black ones the paint near the charger ends up looking terrible and any dents/nicks/scratches look bad.
Annoys me to no end that fun colors are limited to the "cheap" lines like the Neo, Air, and Duo while Pros are boring. If I'm spending $4k on a laptop then why can't I get it in green? It genuinely makes no sense.
Champagne/Starlight is definitely the way to go when available. Starlight especially, it's mostly silver but sometimes the light catches it just right to give it this sort of iridescent gradient to a light gold.
I liked the old Gold they used in the mid 2010s too.
Except there is no "paint". Neither are there any "black ones"; space grey isn't very close to black, and I've seen no wear issues of any kind on any of the Macs I support.
A laptop starting at almost 3 grand with only 24gb ram is a tragedy, the RAMpocalypse is brutal.
Basically $400 premium for a screen upgrade. I'm sure the screen is brilliant but mini LED is very much not bad. It's a real bummer that we seem to be entering an era where each year with tech it leans more towards a new product offering that is more but for more money versus getting more for our dollar consistently.
OLED feels pretty established at this point... could they really not have pulled off just making that the default screen on pro's or is this just a price gouge for a premium feature.
Da Vinci Resolve recommends 16GB for video editing and 32GB if you're doing Fusion compositions. Basic video stuff.
Blender definitely benefits from more RAM. The M-series Macs are good for doing renders. If you're a hobbyist or independent creator, you're more likely to be rendering on your laptop than having a fancy render farm. (That's exactly how the movie Flow was done.)
Musicians know software instruments can eat into RAM, and streaming things like sample-based instruments off of disc is non viable for real time audio. Real world use can have very large numbers of tracks with many software instruments and VST chains. Ableton is a minimum of 8GB for the DAW, and things like Kontakt will multiply that fast.
And people usually have Chrome, chat apps and other things open while they work.
For work I have a Windows laptop with a touch screen and these were the only times I have wanted to use it:
1. The trackpad on it is so god awful that using any sort of multi finger gesture is a non-starter. In this case the touch screen works significantly better.
2. I wanted to draw in a whiteboarding tool. Drawing with my finger is not ideal so I tried a passive stylus. Drawing with a passive rubber-tipped stylus leaves a lot to be desired. I would much rather use an active stylus or a pen display for artists if I could.
Apple is known for the best trackpads. They have set the bar high and they have consistently met that bar for over a decade. I don't need a touch screen for gestures when their trackpad feels just as good. To my next point, there is no pen support on this screen.
Given this, I feel the touch screen is going to be seen just like the touch bar, a pretty feature that receives some good niche support, but ultimately does not align with how the majority of users use a laptop. I just hope there's an option to turn off the touch screen when they inevitably start shifting this display down to the base model.
"The trackpad on it is so god awful that using any sort of multi finger gesture is a non-starter. In this case the touch screen works significantly better."
probably the only reason -- and this is mitigated with a mouse.
It seems to me like a transition year. Apple occasionally has these where the lineup doesn't make sense until they phase out the old and bring in the new. iPads in 2016, iMacs in 2021, iPads in 2022, Macbooks in 2011, etc.
It's really hard to maintain a perfectly positioned product lineup while managing underlying shifts in technologies. It's usually the availability and price of new components that cause this, along with needing to iron out issues before bringing a technology fully mainstream. Here the touchscreen is new, the hinge is new, and the screen tech is new to the platform. You can't always just drop something that on the mass market.
Coming from the company that simultaneously offered six(!) different models of iPad at once, this is not unsurprising at all. From 2022 to 2024, Apple offered: Two models of iPad, an iPad mini, an iPad Air, and two models of iPad Pro (11 and 13 inch).
For Apple, product & hardware come first, marketing and positioning is secondary.
Macbook Pros have had at least two segments in them for a very long time: the base level smallest pro and the 'real' MBP.
The base level has fewer ports / less beefy cpu / less features; right now the 14" M6, but previously dual core, two thunderbolt 13" intel MBPs without touchbar. These are popular with corporate fleets.
The 'real' MBPs have all the ports / beefy cpu / best features / optional bigger screens.
Apple likes its market segmentation but it's not precious about it in the face of big technology shifts. If there's hardware they love and want, they'll try to ship it and sort out the segmentation after.
But those quadrants still had options for upgrades. I think people vastly misunderstand that chart. It was about reducing product lines down because the Apple of the 90s had too many models that all varied very subtly.
Or are you forgetting that you could choose display types on the old PowerBooks and MacBooks , or choose drive options for a premium etc?
There’s nobody confusing the Pro for the Air or the Neo.
Nobody is confusing the iPad base, air and pro. They’re all strongly segmented.
Yeah quadrants are just a first level sorting mechanism to get people in the door and focused on something. The real genius of Apple's segmentation is that there's always a next step up just $100-300 away. So you might start in the consumer side, but then walk your way up to pro because your consumer laptop is now optioned out enough to be within spitting distance, so may as well make the jump.
It's interesting that they've decided to release a new high-end model this year even though they aren't coming out with new high-end M6 chips. Apparently they have decided to not make Pro/Max versions of the M6 in favor of accelerating development of the M7 series, which will have improved support for on-device AI. https://www.macrumors.com/2026/06/25/2027-macs-m7-chips/
Historically speaking, the Pro/Max versions of the chips have become available at around the same time the next-generation base chip does. So, M4 Pro/Max shipped when M5 shipped, M5 Pro/Max shipped when M6 shipped, and so forth.
Yeah they have done this for awhile now. It is weird to have your cheapest base model option outperform your MUCH more expensive configs on single core perf though.
The touch screen is such a silly idea here. It even looks ridiculous in their own marketing photos. [1] The keyboard and track pad are already a great combo for getting things done.
I don't get why they're doing this other than making another step towards unifying iOS and macOS (and visionOS?).
I agree. The ergonomics of using a touch screen on a laptop screen aren't great. It only really works if you convert it to a tablet so that the screen is closer to you and angled up a bit for comfort, but it's no longer a laptop, so why bother?
Apple used to delay and deliver their own brand or interpretation of technology with meaningful differences
Nowadays it feels like a gilded copy of existing tech that also failed to find PMF
Moreover they lost sight of excellent UX, each new OS update adds more bloatware and needless "features" while the calendar app weeps in the corner and slow performance and bugs plague the system
i hope there's a linux analog to pro display xdr at which point i can jump ship
I don't know why there's all this talk about putting cellular in MacBooks. Tethering between macOS and iPhone is practically seamless and even to Android it's not difficult. Where are people going with their laptop and not their phone?
replacing the notch with a hole punch isn't much of an improvement for me anyway. it still kills the top quarter inch of the display for non-letterboxed movies, games etc. I'm tempted to replace my Air with a Neo just to have a non-punctured screen.
Before I bought my first MacBook years ago, I had a Windows laptop with a touchscreen, and the only useful aspect of it for me was pinch-to-zoom, and only because the touchpad pinch-to-zoom gesture felt so bad to use that I'd rather lift my arm up in the air and get fingerprints on my screen.
Once I got my MacBook - with it's phenomenal touchpad - this was no longer an issue, and over the years since, I have never, not once, wished it had a touchscreen.
All Apple needed to do was to introduce a MBP variant with an OLED screen, as an option for those willing to risk burn-in to gain perfect blacks, and that's it!
Steve had been an outspoken critic of touchscreen laptops. It seems that none of his original gripes are addressed in this release. Another drop in the bucket of half-assed hardware releases from apple "our competitors have it so we need it too" (vision pro, new homepod thing, iphone duo, etc)
Similar feelings about the Duo. Very little innovation beyond what is offered by Androids. In fact, I feel like there are many foldable Android phones that offer better hardware (Motorola Razr Fold comes to mind). I say this as someone who is a huge Apple Fanboy and got a Duo on release day.
Various android phones have had better specs and more innovative hardware than Apple for like 15 years. It took them years to finally turn around to big screens, but following Android on that didn't hurt Apple in the long run.
What percentage of Apple's customers remember Steve Jobs saying that thing in 2011? I think most of them are here in this thread.
And there was an answer given by John Ternus:
"The Mac is first and foremost an indirect input device, built around the trackpad and keyboard. But I think there's times when it's comfortable and handy to have touch.
We needed to get to a point where adding touch didn't make the product lesser in any way. It didn't make it heavier. It didn't make it thicker. That came together with the OLED screen, the best display we've ever put into a Mac. All of these things, and, oh yeah, it has touch as well."
Things aren't decided by customers only. There are journalists, YouTubers and whole class of influencers who can decided something is shite on a whim. If enough people do so, the tide may change faster then you'd think. It happened to companies with cult following before. It's literally happening to Nike as we speak.
Apple has had more flops than hits in recent years. The Vision Pro, the Glass interface, the Duo hinge flaw that will almost certainly end up with a recall. The Apple Watch always listening, now the bangle touch display with nothing innovative to back it up?
They don't deliver like they used to. I was their fanboy for 10 years and they did deliver the quality and innovation consistently, I just don't see it anymore. The only thing they have going is the CPU.
are you still on the same macbook? Im using the same config and its running solid, note from above is true on the darker colored version, getting some color changes, but its still a beast of a machine.
Not who you responded to, but I am. M3 Max with 128GB and I use every bit of it for photo/video editing and local building/compiling heavy projects. I'm glad I took this configuration then with the way prices are now and don't see myself replacing this for another few years.
Not the poster but I'm also still using my M1 Max 32 GB RAM Macbook bought at the end of 2022 (yes, just right before the M2 Max...) and see no reason to buy another. Also paid 3400 (euros).
Really glad I'm not currently shopping for a new computer.
It's also pretty fucking sad how this thing comes with less RAM than my low-end Mac Studio from 2022. I only upgraded from a 512 GB SSD to 1 TB, and I still have 32 GB. And even still, I paid 2599€ for it, where as the OLED MacBook Pro is 4049€.
That's an additional device, additional financing potentially on a different life cycle, potentially a different account to manage.
For a dedicated iOS dev that's worth the hassle, for someone managing a team of devs or employees only needing apps to run without requiring a full dev env, it's quite convenient and potentially cheaper.
They have had people asking them for touchscreen laptops for years. They legitimately lose sales to people who want a Mac but refuse to buy a laptop without a touch screen.
I think this is the wrong device to start with, though. The demand for touchscreens is probably highest in the cheapest lines. But presumably this will trickle down over the next few years.
No, this is a great idea! No more wacom tablet, no more going back and forth between the mac and iPad! I'm looking forward to having a mac where I can just swivel the screen to lie flat and use my apple pen to draw!
I'm going to offer a use case for touch screens: Augmented reality (AR) development.
I think there's a real possibility that AR takes off in the next 1-5 years. The combination of LLMs + smaller AR glasses makes AR a viable computing platform.
For example, simple things like, "Where are my keys?" is a lot easier to solve if (a) you're wearing your AR glasses already and (b) they have access to a frontier LLM.
However, it's very difficult to simulate "touching something" in AR using a mouse/trackpad and keyboard. What if you want to "twist open" a peanut butter jar? I could imagine touching the screen and twisting my fingers in a rotational pattern along the top of the can.
If only we could discuss the OLED display rather than an optional feature. I did not see anything in the marketing materials that indicated I would be punished for refusing to utilize the touchscreen.
I think half of y'all are trying to justify your most recent MBP upgrade. Those of us still on the M1 are probably looking at this thinking about how fortunate it is that we've waited this long.
Yeah, if you can turn off or ignore the touch part, there's a whopper of a weight savings, a better display panel, and improved thermal performance hiding in this package.
For those wondering about the use case for touch screen, anytime you are showing info to someone and need to scroll the screen it’s much easier with a touch screen. I’ve encountered it most at doctors offices. Also scrolling through pictures with a client, or going through excel sheets with payroll is just easier using touch while sharing.
And let’s be honest, I bet those of us that use touch screens often enough have instinctively touched their laptops screen trying to scroll it on more than a few occasions, I know I’m guilty of it.
Am I the only one that has never ever felt the need to have a touch screen display on my Mac?
EDIT: I already can’t stand when people touch my display just to point at something, I definitely don’t want my own oily fingerprints smeared all over a screen I spend all day looking at.
You're going to get a ton of affirmatives but remember this is also the forum that considers removable batteries one of the most important smartphone features. Our opinions about consumer tech are outliers.
Touch screens on laptops are a bit like 4k screens or >60Hz screens. You don't expect to get much out of them, but once you're used to them, going back is annoying.
Everything from my watch to my printer has a touch screen, it's kind of strange how long Apple has held out, especially with the ultra expensive market they target with their laptops.
Whenever I had to use a laptop with a touch screen for work, I immediately turned it off. I have no idea what my use case would be as a coder, and it doesn’t seem like Apple has come up with anything new to give me a reason to try it again.
I’ve felt for years that they were holding out until they could make a dual touchscreen MacBook work and be a peak experience. I was expecting an iPhone duo type MacBook. That hasn’t happened.
Who plays a musical keyboard on a vertical surface? Nobody.
Some of their examples are absolutely ridiculous, for sure. The lack of a fold-back design, like the surface, with pencil support is also a surprise to me. I suppose they'd still rather sell you an iPad with an operating system they don't let you control rather than bringing their laptop segment up to par with the competition.
But having had to emulate pinch-zoom in an Android emulator has made me wish I had my touch screen laptop back. Emulated touch events also don't work like real touch events, so web dev can also be a bit annoying sometimes.
My company once gave me a touchscreen laptop and I did know that until I touched the screen by accident. It was fun to play but I never found it useful. I heard many people saying the same, some of them even preferred to disable. I find it uncomfortable to touch a laptop screen... The only thing seems to benefit from that for me is photo editing apps or 3D modelling.
So, I'm curious about how you use it. Do you have a specific use case where touchscreen made you life easier?
It's just small things. I don't have a touch screen laptop anymore, but being able to physically tap things or reaching over to touch things just felt natural.
I have a phone with a QWERTY keyboard that also acts as a trackpad, yet I rarely use mouse mode on it. Seeing kids interact with laptops for the first time and touching the screen expecting them to work like every other device they use is also probably a sign of the times.
I understand why not everyone likes them, though. Some people prefer to disable their trackpads too, or prefer ball mice, or prefer mouse gestures over keyboard gestures. To each their own. I welcome the diversity.
I would love a tablet running macOS, which I prefer over Windows and desktop Linux. I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 7. It performed fine under Windows 10, though performance suffered when upgrading to Windows 11. The Surface Pro is a nice piece of hardware, but I wish it had macOS instead of Windows. The iPad Pro definitely has enough processing power to run macOS, but it runs iPadOS, which is too restrictive for me as a developer.
If Apple went through the effort making macOS touchscreen-ready for this new MacBook Pro, then perhaps we’ll see a tablet with macOS one day. I’d buy an iPad Pro with macOS in a heartbeat.
The pencil is bad enough but how it charges itself is even worse. Lets turn my ipad into a brittle stingray. It's up there with the mouse having to charge upside down for apples top own goals.
I've had a Thinkpad with a touch screen and I loved it. Sometimes touching something on the screen is a lot faster than grabbing the mouse, moving the cursor, and then clicking.
Although it's a lot more useful on laptops that can fold into a tablet, which neither MacBooks nor my Thinkpad can do.
Their marketing web page shows someone poking with their fingers at the virtual keyboard and it's so cringe. Who is going to use their laptop that way? For pro workflows? Pros have midi keyboards with pads and those are even not that expensive.
You're not alone. Though, I wonder if this means better coating, the coating on the existing MacBooks (but not the M1's) get damaged far too easily when in a bag.
Not sure when it started (at least the M4 is affected by this) but all the macbooks I had (personal+work) since the M4 have display dimples after being put in a stuffed backpack.
Meanwhile the M1 Air I had for more than 3 years never saw the issue.
1) Youth expect all screens to be touch. They are learning how to use computers in school on touchscreen Chromebooks. Apple knows they must adapt to user expectation.
2) AI is forcing UI evolution that is hard to anticipate, but I suspect will be served well by having more kinds of inputs available in advance.
when i'm in a supine position like in bed with my knees up... i will unfold my framework pro to 180º and use my thumb to scroll docs etc. only downside is smudge marks on the screen which rly irritate me.
> “We’ve done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn’t work,” “Touch surfaces don’t want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off,”
> “It doesn’t work, it’s ergonomically terrible.”
“Back to the Mac” event in 2010.
After the unnecessary iOS "glass", touchbar, and now this USD400 'arm-fatigue feature', and other - made soley for the media-money-shot 'features' - Apple is really just in the 'great demo' business and departs even further 'great product' business.
Be careful with quotes like this. Steve Jobs was a salesperson. He has had a good history of selling compromises as intent.
Remember when he was trying to tell us that the original iPhone having no App Store was intentional, we don’t need it, because we have the best web browser? Yeah, that was just a plain lie because the App Store wasn’t ready.
Or the time he got on stage and acted like the Rokr was a good phone (although you could see through that one a little better).
Similar to the "hole drilled through the kitchen table" problem of the HomeView ad, seeing the hands/arms floating in to touch the screen immediately makes me imagine the impossible ergonomics of reaching across a keyboard to touch a screen.
Steve would agree: "We've done tons of user tests on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo, but after a short period of time you start to fatigue, and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. It doesn't work. It's ergonomically terrible."
It's like having a remote control to read your kindle that's sitting on a stand 2 feet away (which, coincidentally, Amazon just announced).
Apparently the Ternus era of Apple is focusing on whether something can be built, not whether it should be released.
It's got a very interesting pixel layout, different even from previous tandem OLEDs. Hard to describe quickly in words, but shown in Figure 2 here: https://www.apple.com/ca/macbook-pro/proled-xdr-display/pdf/... I imagine some of the C-shaped empty space is probably to accommodate the per-pixel emitter transistor.
Too bad they didn't go for the fifth generation panels with RGB layout. I have one of those monitors and it's so good, text is extremely crisp and of course zero fringing.
On retina it won't be as annoying as on a normal monitor obviously.
Is there any information about the touchscreen digitizer technology? My understanding is that there are a few different ways touchscreens are integrated into OLED panels (on-cell, in-cell, external grid). I have a Dell 16" laptop with a 4K OLED which happened to come with a touchscreen; I'm not mad about the touch features themselves (although I rarely if ever use them), except, the "on-cell" touchscreen digitizer is slightly visible under some conditions and because the display is otherwise so flawless and amazing, it's pretty annoying.
I have never wanted to touch my laptop screen or felt any sort of desire to do so. In fact I try really hard not to touch it so that I don't get smudges on it.
The laptop touch screen always felt like an awkward use case to me because the ideal UX for touch and KBM are so different. If you're designing for use on laptop/desktop you need to design for KBM-first -- since the majority of devices will be -- and therefore the touch experience suffers, and users with a touchscreen just use the KBM.
I don't think the average consumer cares that much about this either. I've noticed my grandparents often buy laptops with touchscreens accidentally and then proceed to mostly interact with it by accident.
Part of me wants to believe that a company like apple must/would do this right if they were going to do it but on the other hand there's the whole touch bar debacle and it doesn't seem like their foldable phone is starting off with the best reviews either.
> The laptop touch screen always felt like an awkward use case to me because the ideal UX for touch and KBM are so different
Which is why I think it makes sense for certain things where you can update the experience to be enhanced for touch but not, like, daily email & web browsing. But those things that will do well with touch do seem to align with the creative side of Apple's market - things like manipulating 3D objects, moving audio tracks around, that kind of stuff, if the interface is re-thought for a touch experience then I think there's a lot there.
Certainly there are times, even just basic things like looking at pictures, where I wish I could touch my monitor like it was a tablet.
I don't want to try to tap a link on a desktop rendered website, a mouse is more precise for that kind of thing, but I can imagine a lot of use cases that will improve if you assume that a large subset of your users has some kind of touch device.
I agree, there's definitely places where I could see it being useful. I just wonder if it's too marginal to justify it. I felt the same way about the touch bar.
Get a custom-made cloth or use a thin microfiber like a lens cleaning cloth and put it between the keyboard and screen. Whenever you close the computer. Keeps the smudges off and prevents key shaped wear marks in your display.
I think my comment was internally consistent with my phone use.
My comment was not about touchscreens in general, it was about touchscreens on laptops. The phone touch experience is excellent because everything is designed for touch. Correspondingly, if you plug a KBM into a phone, it's a very poor experience.
If my phone's display is oil repelling, it simply doesn't work very well. I regularly wipe the screen to keep it clean. Luckily, this is very easy to do since my phone is the size of my hand and the display is attached to a solid box with no hinges involved. I can clean it with my shirt when I notice smudges and am in the habit of doing so. A laptop screen is much more annoying to keep clean.
For those HDR video editing / color grading specialists, how do these compare to Samsung + LG OLED TVs, Sony HDR Reference Monitors, or else?
I’ve always been interested in HDR video (HDR 10 +, Dolby Vision, HLG) and have wondered if the marginal upgrade in producer display quality will further impact the consumer HDR consumption. Also I think it’s noteworthy that they showcase DaVinci Resolve instead of Final Cut Pro, which is their own non linear editor and color grading app.
I wasn't sure how I would feel about my newish MBP M5 Max when they released this, but given the price increase, and the fact that I have zero interest in a better screen since I dock most of the time, I am happy I paid $2K less for the same horsepower earlier this year.
Update: The one nice thing I noticed is the weight of the 16" is only 4.1lb vs. 4.7lb from the previous model. I guess OLED is a lot lighter. THAT would be nice.
I’m surprised because Apple has famously (and publicly) argued in the past that touchscreens on laptops were a bad idea. Things can change, of course, but I don’t see anything here that even attempts to invalidates any of the arguments they made against touchscreen laptops at the time, which I still think were pretty compelling.
For example, raising your arm to interact with a screen for any sustained period just doesn’t work ergonomically. In my experience, people who buy touchscreen-enabled laptops quickly loose the habit of using the touchscreen for exactly that reason.
It also makes the display look dirty. I expected Apple to pair this with some new coating or display technology that would reduce fingerprints and smudges, etc, but I’m not seeing anything like that either.
Overall I’m surprised Apple would add a whole new interaction model to the MacBook and barely explain why. Given how central UX has always been to Apple (they make a big deal of the mouse, the click wheel and multi-touch, etc.) That feels very... un-Apple.
> In my experience, people who buy touchscreen-enabled laptops quickly loose the habit of using the touchscreen for exactly that reason.
I have not experienced that at all. I see people touch their touch-capable laptop screens all the time.
I don’t understand how people legitimately hold this belief that no one could or would use a laptop touchscreen. This is exactly how millions of people use their tablets every day. You hold it in your lap and you poke the screen. Or you use the stand to prop it up on a table and you poke at the screen. And shockingly, your arm doesn’t fall off.
Admittedly, Apple has “refused” to do many things over the years (pen support on iPad comes to mind) and yet ends up doing them. Apple refuses to do something until they want to sell it.
FWIW, I don’t understand the appeal of this device at all, but I don’t expect much consistency from Apple.
My iPad Pro has a plenty big screen, a touch screen, and a processor that's faster than my M1 Air...by a lot. I would be ecstatic if they would put MacOS on the iPad. Instead, they put the damn screen for the iPad on the MacBook.
When I saw rumours of it being touch I thought it would be a continuation of the iPhone Duo* idea but swapping between MacOS and iPadOS with a detachable keyboard, so if you are detached you have a screen, ipadOS and touch, if you plugin the keyboard it has additional hardware and macOS "swaps in" like some companies have attempted in the past
I've always thought the ideal future is to have the phone just be the desktop when docked, if computing advances well enough, and super disappointed this is just some random touch laptop.
The OLED is great as I use a 32" 4k 240hz OLED on MacOS and it has made a huge difference in my eye strain but I don't understand the point of the touch without a proper use for it.
* that you can use the Duo folded 90deg like a mini laptop.
I am going to jump on the touch hate bandwagon but more specifically I think it’s odd in the format they designed. I think the MSFT surface is brilliant because you can fold it down into an iPad like device which can be great for travel and other non-desk uses.
Touch while still being a normal laptop does feel odd. I would be curious who wants touch in this form factor.
Between open-weight models largely not worth their salt, and me setting up a VPS to do all my development now because I kept running into CPU limits with my M1 Pro, I think I'm just going to replace the battery on my M1 Pro and wait until a MacBook Pro with cellular arrives.
It's wild to think that even just 12 months ago, I would have hailed the touchscreen MacBook Pro. Now I don't need much more than an Air. (I also did more video editing back then, whereas now I don't really do it) (and I also want to play games)
My god they finally did it. After all the fears of canibalizing iPad sales and gorilla arms. An Apple touchscreen MacBook.
Absurd it took this long when they basically led the field in touchscreen innovation (especially on the UX side of things)
I always thought the Surface Book design by Microsoft was very Apple like and it always seemed like the logical step: let the screen detach but keep the extra horsepower in the base.
CPU + battery in the top-cover kills the balance of the laptop and makes the whole thing heavier. It's a really awkward design compared to a clamshell laptop with a very thin display-only lid.
Flip-around convertible or kickstand with soft-cover keyboard both work a lot better, but also both have trade-offs.
I somewhat fondly recall my old HP Windows Pen PC where the screen would twist and lay back down over the keyboard. That thing was a brick, but it had the correct balance for a laptop and the keyboard keys were out of the way in tablet mode. Maybe Apple will bring that form factor back, but with a super thin OLED display and a really lightweight device.
Having said that, I'd be afraid to touch it. On one of my MBPs, I held it by putting my hands near the hinge, with my thumbs resting in the lower corners of the screen. Over (a short period of) time, the protective(?) coating on the screen wore away.
It looks cool but I just don't think it's something I'd buy. If I wanted touchscreen, I'd just get a windows laptop. What's everyone else's thoughts on touch and display on Apple?
Everybody worried about the usefulness of touch (which I do find occasionally useful), meanwhile they've literally set base pricing at $2900. For a 14 inch mbp, with 24GB. Hilarious.
It might not be the right machine for you and that's ok.
If I needed one of these for my work (I don't) and was going to be using it every day for the next two years, I think I could justify it. It would be about $4 / day which is within reach. Add in the fact that Mac's have decent resale value and the daily expense could be quite a bit less.
No cellular which is literally the only thing missing from the macbook pro :(
1. Mini LED is fantastic so the OLED jump is marginal at best
2. I know many people with a touchscreen windows laptop. None of them uses the touch function on a regular basis
What’s your use case for cellular on a laptop? At least here in Canada data plans are expensive enough that I could blow through my monthly limit in 30min with a laptop. I would be quite annoyed if my wifi dropped and I had discovered only later that I’d exhausted my data unknowingly
My first iPad entirely felt like a waste of money. Any time I'd want to do something useful with it, the mac was a better choice. Not sure what cellular on the iPad would have ever offered me, but I know why I want it on my laptop.
If i wanted a touch screen mb air, id get an ipad. i will actively avoid these. apple has been dropping the ball big time lately. ive noticed siri has a 5 second delay on my phone now, making reminder setting not so easy.
I love how their marketing is increasingly trying to convince M1 mac owners why they should upgrade. The m1 is still way overpowered for what most people need, including developers. I'm keeping my m1 and m1 max until they stop supporting it.
Other than the “you can now make software samplers and soundboards” I don’t know why you would want a touch screen on a laptop.
The entire purpose of the laptop (for me at any rate) is to do real work without the touch screen.
I’m not sure what pro workflows would actually benefit from this vs. a wirelessly paired iPad. I would not pay a dollar extra for touch personally - but that screen does look nice.
My god they’re really running out ideas in Cupertino. What I need is a screen that gives an electrical shock to anybody that dares to touch it with their filthy fingers.
I almost can't imagine a laptop that is less for me. But for the people it is for (like my wife) it's hard to imagine one that's for them more. Really fascinating feeling—kinda glad this exists, even if not for my benefit!
I am on board for touchscreen (and pencil support) for macOS due to my dream of only carrying an iPad Pro for all development; however, I think they’re making the same mistake as the touch bar - touch is only available on the most expensive Mac’s which will ensure they’re niche. Niche options for user input ensure very few apps get updated to use the new user input (foldable phones, I’m speaking about you).
Seems like this is essentially a 400$ upgrade for the M6 Pro MacBook Pro. Those 400$ get you better sound, a better display and touch.
This is clearly targeted at creatives, the touchscreen feels more like a nice bonus they give out so people can experiment with touchscreen macOS and polish their apps for it - my guess is that this is preparation for a more convenient touch-based macOS device they're going to launch in a year or so.
Better sound is not really a selling point to anyone in the real world.
IMO, this is a macbook pro but ~200g lighter and with an improved screen that's finally oled. Absolutely NOT worth 2900. An M6 mbp specced to 24GB is $700 cheaper directly on their site. Yeah it's an M6 and not an M5 pro, but I guarantee the performance difference won't matter 99.9% of the time.
$2900 is just ridiculous. So many better options with this budget.
> Better sound is not really a selling point to anyone in the real world.
Have you heard a recent 16" MBPro? They sound great. The Spatial Audio works. Maybe most people don't prioritize it, but it's a real quality of life thing. Same with deep black pixels: you don't know what the experience is worth until you have it. I value it highly.
The screens recently have been very good, but this one is better. Same with the sound. I'm glad it exists because it drives everyone to get better.
Which is why "better than existing macbook pros" isn't a selling point. It's already more than good enough.
The parent comment was saying "better sound" as one of the upgrades you get for the $400, which is a comparison to the currently available macbook pros.
Call me old fashioned, but I think "this one is even better than the last one, and you already liked that one, so imagine how you're gonna enjoy this one", is indeed a selling point. It's one of the most common and enduring selling points.
Cue the folks who have used nothing but Apple laptops for the past 20 years coming here and wondering who would possibly want a laptop with a touch screen.
I think the confusion is lot of Apple enthusiasts drank the kool-aid the company served them saying touch screen is "yuck". And now they have a touch screen, it takes a while to re-orient themselves.
We saw this with foldables. It was a bad idea, but when Apple did it, it was a great idea all of a sudden.
And if you rewind a while back, you'll see "large phones are bad because one handed use .. blah blah" and then Pro Max.
I really hope the screen no longer has the slow response and ghosting anymore. I'm surprised by the responsive difference every time I use my outdated 2013 MacBook Air's trackpad and immediately feel the difference over my 2021 MacBook Pro M1 daily driver.
Not a fan of touchscreen on inclined surfaces, personally. I think the ergonomics of this will be bad for shoulders/elbows.
Like the iPad when it’s docked to its smart keyboard, I don’t like touching it at the point, it’s better to use the trackpad that’s laying flat.
It also wobbles when you do touch it. The macbook may not do the wobble, but it will constantly push further open and this may weaken the hinge mechanism over time.
I always thought if Apple did touch on the macbook it would come with a redesign to merge macOS with touch elements from the iPad. As it stands this feels like more of an afterthought.
If there’s one killer feature though, it’s iOS device mirroring and the iOS simulators. I’ve instinctively reached up to touch the iOS simulator so many times.
I wonder how they do the glowing apple logo with no backlight.
I thought that they would basically replace macbooks with ipad pros. Sort of like microsoft surface, a tablet-laptop combo. Not sure what their plan is now.
Same, my latency in the home (which is where I spend 99% of my time), even over WiFi, is generally <5ms, which is plenty low enough to stream the desktop to the laptop via Sunshine+Moonlight and even control fast-paced FPS games.
A macbook with apple pencil support that can be held like a tablet (turn the screen 180 degrees?) would be incredible for digital drawing. Hope to see it in my lifetime.
Does this mean that macOS will natively support touch screens so I don't need to look anymore for after-market solutions[0] for mine? That would be cool.
I’m not sure. macOS has had some degree of support for touch screens internally for a very long time (2010) but required hardware specific drivers.
So this probably isn’t the matter of macOS finally adding native support. More that they revealed what was already there.
Or it can be a complete rewrite. Either way they would have to explicitly implement support for external touchscreens using a generic driver instead of a specific one for each device.
Years ago like 2010, 11 Microsoft had demo touchscreen computers running an art application in the Kids Room at the MOMA museum in NYC. It was responsive to actual brushes and was quite an interesting interface. As far as I knew it was a beta.
Back in the day this would have been a “One more thing…” announcement. Apple must be upset with the hardware prices to bury this a late October press release.
I see. The iPad and Macbook are converging. Interesting. I can’t say I get the use case but perhaps it will fold in some interesting way that makes it usable. I have no problem using a touchscreen occasionally but in the standard configuration the screen will wobble if you touch it.
Apple's been trying (in vain?) to sell iPad users a Magic Keyboard for six years and add a windowing system to iPadOS to pretend it's a real operating system, so I suppose they're trying to bridge the gap from the opposite (Macbook) side.
Ipads have been oled for years now. The samsung galaxy s has literally had an oled for 16 years now. If these screens aged badly, don't you think Apple/Samsung either would've switched away or built more burn-in resistant oleds?
Also brightness degradation on especially a tandem oled is unlikely within its reasonable lifespan. Tandem oleds are the literal peak of display technology for this size of panel. Image quality wise, there's no downside.
OLED displays now are tandem OLED displays which stack multiple layers. This means you don't need to exponentially crank up the voltage to provide more brightness which also increases lengivity of the panel (and increases battery life).
I have a, what, 2019 LG CX OLED TV. 55". Used in anger as computer monitor since new. With complete disregard for burnout. It's… perfectly fine? I can't see any dimming or patterns or faults at all.
2000 nits peak screen brightness with nano texture is going to look incredible outdoors. Not sure I'm feeling the need to upgrade yet but glad the brightness+coating combo will continue to be a thing
Hoping for a follow-up convertible touchscreen pen-capable MacBook Air. iPad Pro is just too limiting with iPadOS and it's thicker and heavier than a MacBook Air or any of my convertible Chromebooks.
The full spec is significantly more expensive in my local currency (Denmark, DKK) than in USD. Something like $7500 even after sales tax of 25% is added.
> Up to 13 more hours than Intel-based MacBook Pro
Even though this reveal seems genuinely cool, this stat sounds weird. Why compare it to Intel Macs when the status quo has been Apple Silicon for half a dozen years?
Some of my students use touchscreen Windows laptops. They seem to be OK with them but I never found them usable particularly for coding. A touchscreen laptop has ergonomically bad design. Or it could just be a generational thing.
Aside: Does anyone else find the new AI texture explosions Apple's using on their marketing pages now a little unsettling and un-Apple? I guess I'm desperate for at least one tech brand to feel / remain human.
Curious to see if oled actually helps battery life. My experience with OLEDs are they absolutely drain power on white scenes. My oled monitor pulls ~90w on a white screen, you can feel it get hot like an old CRT.
I had a Dell OLED 4k laptop 4 years ago that depending on screen brightness would absolutely murder the battery.
Funny how half the press release tries to hide the notch/island/whatever its called. I almost thought they gave up on that, then I finally saw it like 7 or 8 images in.
Doesn't look like it folds back or does tent mode. Those are some good use cases for touchscreen PCs, being able to walk around in tablet mode in something like a warehouse, for example.
Got the m5 pro like last month. Actually no FOMO this time. I wonder how the AMOLED looks irl, I bet it's sweet but the current pro motion is already top notch.
"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out, it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demos. But after a short period of time, you start to fatigue, and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. It's ergonomically terrible."
—Jobs
The fancy OLED display would actually be a potential reason to finally upgrade from my M1 Pro but even if I could afford it, I find prices like that hard to swallow (and I couldn't care less about touch in a laptop fwiw). Guess I'll buy one used in a year or three, maybe.
looks like they brought back the glowing apple logo on the lid for the first time in a decade!
the older macbooks used the display's backlight to illuminate the logo, but since these new OLED displays light up individual pixels I wonder how they're lighting it up now...
I literally cannot imagine touching my macbook's screen on purpose. Dual screen phone. Touchscreen macbook. Fairy princess UI. Apple used to lead the way in design language and functionality. They're absolutely rizzless nowadays.
Touch screen on a laptop is objectively disgusting. I have a Lenovo yoga X1 or something with a touch screen (and it folds backwards into a tablet) hence the name. It is stupid and useless. I can imagine Steve Jobs turning in his grave right now.
If you want a screen to touch get a fucking tablet.
Why do videos of screens look amazing even when viewed on an inferior monitor? This is not a new observation of mine - even as a child, I'd see fuzzy, snowy commercials for big screen TVs on my 13 inch color TV, and they always looked so much better than the TV I was watching them on.
Please tell me the rounded corners at the bottom of the screen are just for the effect and they aren't actually physically like that. This would be worse than the current notch, you can even see them clipping the text in the LM Studio picture.
Aww dammit I was waiting for a body refresh with M6, but this is still M5…
Why are Apple's new product lines so..self-defeating now? I wanted to get the iPhone Duo but it has worse cameras than my iPhone 17 Pro Max, and now this Mac..
Looks like people who want the best of everything will have to skip this year.
I've noticed this with a lot of products lately. It seems rare for a new release to strictly supersede or maintain performance on all attributes on a successor.
I am pretty sure Steve is rolling in his grave. It's pretty saddening to see Apple losing its vision, what is making MacBook Pro different than other laptops in the market? Apple silicon? Not anymore.
MacOS? Probably, but it's getting worse too.
I have had touch screen laptop (Dell Inspiron), and boy, it was such a horrible and useless feature. Screen is always greasier than gas-station hot dog.
Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure their stock is headed for a new ATH.
This is disappointing, I was hoping they were going to do something interesting with the display hinge to make it make sense as a touch interface. Can’t see it being useful as is.
So unbelievably disappointing, right after the disappointment of the Duo. I was in the market for both, the early reviews of the Duo stopped me from upgrading, and the landing page of this new Mac has stopped me from upgrading that.
1. No cellular? This was honestly one of the biggest selling points in my eyes. The iPhone hotspot has been so unreliable lately.
2. Never would use the touchscreen in software engineering. Agree with others that I don't understand a real use case for it, and apparently their website designers can't either.
3. OLED is nice.
4. 24h battery life is nice.
5. No M6 Pro/Max. Just getting one generation up?
6. Not even a cool name? No Macbook Ultra? Macbook Studio? Obviously not important, but even they couldn't justify it as its own separate product from the existing Pros.
On the bright side, the wallet savings are nice. Absolutely not worth a $4,150 hit (using my M4 Pro 48GB/1TB 16" as reference)
Apple said its skipping M6 for Macbook Pro -- there is no m6 pro/max -- so the next chip MBP will get is m7 in 2027. So I would hold off on buying one until next year. This is essentially a 2025 product refresh.
Touch screens are dead, no one ever said good things about them. Also, I think the best setup now (regardless macos or linux) is having your heavy lifting compute at home and you use something like macbook air and ssh into it, that way you get the best portability and also you are secure if your laptop is lost.
If the screen were detachable and you get a giant 16'' ipad, I would consider it. I do not want touch interface on a laptop and will never buy this. I do want non-touch OLED screen though.
Dynamic island sounds like it will be huge distraction if animations will play there.
The product itself is fine, I have no strong opinions on it. But what a hell of a disappointing unveiling.
Take down the store and website for a few minutes, boot it back up, boom. That's it. They couldn't even bother with a keynote or a livestream or something.
For their flagship laptop receiving a substantial update after six years. Okay.
Makes sense this event is in LA- this this is designed to be a mobile media creation device. Most users don't care about most of the features that are highlighted in the press release, but someone creating any sort of visual media would.
Historically speaking, the Pro/Max versions of the chips have become available at around the same time the next-generation base chip does. So, M4 Pro/Max shipped when M5 shipped, M5 Pro/Max shipped when M6 shipped, and so forth.
The M7 generation is said to be another huge advance on local LLM performance, so Apple is skipping the M6 Pro and M6 Max to bring out the M7 generation early.
That means Apple will begin imposing all sorts of UI dreck on all of us, whether we want to use our screens as touch surfaces or not.
This is basically what happened with Microsoft - Windows Vista and 7 were installed in plenty of laptops with touchscreens, and customers would complain about not being able to maximize windows without closing them, not being able to open menus without touching toolbar buttons, etc.
Eventually Microsoft listened to them and we got Windows 8. Now this is the beginning of the same process for macOS.
Same goes for Linux. My CachyOS install on my Framework 13 Pro has a touch screen. There’s literally no downside for me having it. I don’t have to use it if I don’t want to. But if I want to scroll a website or scrub a video the option is there.
We saw the same thing happen with mobile first on websites.
However, I still feel like Apple is in their Microsoft era where they're making some of the same mistakes Microsoft have made in the past 20 years.
Aero -> Liquid Glass
Ads in the OS -> Ads in core applications
Fullscreen ads for Microsoft services in the OS -> banner ads for Apple services in the OS
Dark patterns for Windows 11 upgrades -> Dark patterns for macOS 26 upgrades
Windows Mixed Reality -> Vision Pro
I could also say Surface Duo -> iPhone Duo but at this time it's too early to tell. I also think that a touchscreen Mac is a mistake. Not because it's something Microsoft already did but because the reason a MacBook does not need a touchscreen is because Apple has best-in-class trackpads.
So actually, you are harmed by this decision every day you use a Windows 10/11 laptop. You live with this every day. You just don't know what you're missing.
Would it change anyhthing? No. Because developers of the programs what are not part of Windows aren't keen on keeping "the same efficiency". Audacity 4, Thunderbird are good examples of a bad interface - and they did it disregarding the OS UI.
This isn’t an unimplemented theory. You can head over to Best Buy right now and see what it’s like to use a touch screen laptop.
I feel like all this debate is taking place in an odd vacuum where a lot of us are talking about a bunch of potential problems with having a touch screen on a computer and all these problems are already resolved.
Maybe it’s similar to the whole iPhone duo thing where Apple users are just discovering all the caveats of a foldable phone, but we’ve already gone over all of it with competitors.
what i've learning developing and creating products over the years is that harmless features tend to be the ones that cause the most problems. for ex, now you have to add touchscreen code to the OS vs previously not having it at all. and this code or feature we will support for the rest of the lifetime of that product.
In the case of touch screens, it hasn't caused a lasting problem in Windows or Linux.
1. Takes extra battery 2. I’m not touching my screen regardless. It gets dirty enough
My last three or four laptops, which never even booted Windows, have had disabled touchscreens
Basically a product for the people currently carrying around a MacBook Pro and an iPad Pro.
Just touch on a laptop screen makes no sense. I’ve never felt the need to do this.
Buttons sized to be hit by your physical thumb and buttons sized to be hit by a tiny high-precision cursor are very different things.
I am sitting on a macbook pro with the vertical tab pane open in chrome, with 12 tabs. The outer joint of my thumb covers the entire list, in both width and height. A touch-friendly version of that would be humongous in comparison.
I mean the entry level price for this is $2,899, "only" $400 more than the comparable non-touch MBP.
The end result will be akin to taking keyboards away from Platinum league top tier Korean pro RTS players. 500+ operations per minute down to 10
That just hasn’t happened with Windows touch screens.
Yes, Microsoft did fuck around and find out with Windows 8, but by the time Windows 10 landed an entire decade ago, this whole issue has been completely settled. That’s right, your Windows/Linux user friends have been using touchscreens (or no touch screens) without issue for a decade. No UX sky has fallen in this regard.
There’s absolutely zero downside to having a touch screen on Windows and you also absolutely don’t need a touch screen to use it.
I’m using a touch screen on my Linux laptop right now and it’s great. I don’t have to use it. The screen being touch didn’t cost me extra money. It’s just there if I want it.
The Apple camp seems to believe that every technology included with a product must have some kind of intentional holistic value. Apple removed the USB-A port because USB-C is the future. Apple removed the escape key and the function keys because the Touch Bar would replace it.
But the truth of the matter is, sometimes the option to just include both isn’t some kind of magical barrier that Apple can’t do.
You go out and buy a ThinkPad X9 15p and it has 3x thunderbolt, HDMI, SD card, and USB-A. Why doesn’t a MacBook Pro include USB-A? Well, remember, USB-A is the past! It’s legacy!
But the thing about it being unnecessary doesn’t change the fact that it remains trivially expensive to include, and it comes in handy for a bunch of peripherals that aren’t even that old.
So, I think this is why everyone assumes that Apple is going to destroy the OS because of some new thing they add to the hardware. Because the Apple cult is all about the mythical finely crafted experience. If you don’t do things the Apple way you’re holding it wrong. but in Microsoft/Linux-land, they don’t really care. Linux is fully free, and Microsoft knows their demographic net is too wide and their marketshare is too high that they can’t dictate form factor, choice of peripherals, etc. Their whole philosophy is that Windows is suitable for anything and everything.
The Apple culture can’t contemplate a technology company just including an extra option for users with no specific intended use case. PC manufacturers include a touch screen because, screw it, it only costs a few cents extra and maybe someone might like it, software integration be damned/that’s not our problem.
Macs had managed to avoid this degradation for a while because they didn't have touchscreens, but Apple put in the giant finger-friendly padding regions as part of the UI changes in Tahoe, which got a lot of negative feedback. Now that they're introducing touchscreen laptops, it's unlikely that they'll ever fully revert those changes since it will make the touch experience worse.
We forget this because Windows 7 was ugly and Windows 10 and 11 are nicer looking and that feels like progress, somehow. But you don't get nearly the functional information density with Windows 11 that you did with 7.
The taskbar icons are the exact same size. The tray icons are the exact same size. I’m struggling to figure out what’s different.
I personally use KDE which you can fully customize in terms of sizing, it’s great on a touch screen.
Windows laptops never expected tough screen adoption to hit 90% and still touch degraded the experience.
The worry here is that with Apple's e2e design control over the Mac, that this pivot will mean our MacOS UX will be removed in lieu of a more iPad-like experience.
Just look at other developer-friendly features like unlocked bootloaders, background jobs, unsigned software that Apple has removed from their hardware .
So this is a big deal and significant. It's different than you running Linux on your Windows laptop because the touch experience there never had a chance to push out the traditional UX.
What Microsoft introduced touch surfaces, they came out of the train wreck of Longhorn and they were under the belief that they could push windows down to phones. Reality was that they pushed touch surfaces in a barbell distribution… ultra high end and ultra low end. Mostly low end as screen costs were super high.
With Apple, look at the pencil and the iPad. They’ve had a lot of fits and starts, but the Apple Pencil didn’t fundamentally change the iPad, but it did open the door for a very high value use cases for things like procreate.
* For the 14-inch: 3.5 lb (1.59 kg) -> 3.0 lb (1.36 kg)
* For the 16-inch: 4.7 lb (2.13 kg) -> 4.0 lb (1.81 kg)
About 15% lighter on both models. Switching from LCD to OLED saves weight because the screen does not need a backlight and has fewer layers. They also made the laptop thinner by nearly 1 mm. But that's not enough to push the weight down by 300 grams. They must have redesigned internal components to cut weight as well.
There must have been a dedicated effort to reduce weight. Kudos to the MacBook Pro team!
Oled:
Ye Olde:IF memory prices drop, apple product prices will likely drop. And it will stay lighter.
I have an M1 Max but I am not paying 50% more than a few months ago to upgrade.
I have bought Apple laptops since 2004 but I can’t justify the current extortionate pricing, so I’ll sit it out (permanently if need be).
The first gen apple TVs were $300.
The second gen was $99.
The first and second 4k gen were $179.
The third gen was $129.
They might not drop prices on existing models, but they have definitely dropped prices on new versions of product lines.
They then bumped UP the 3rd gen: $249 (+$100) and $199 (+$70).
And the 4th gen has only one option, at $299.
So we've not only "not dropped" prices on the 4K Apple TV, but they've gone up forty per cent.
And you’re right that Apple is hesitant to change prices on models. But that cuts both ways. Apple notably held off of bumping prices across their product line for a considerable amount of time, very plausibly eating the cost of RAM price increases.
It would definitely be atypical but given the unique and extreme nature of the current situation, I wouldn’t be shocked if they cut prices somewhat once the RAM situation relaxes.
They have dropped the price of the MacBook Air a few years ago and the Mac Mini as well. So your statement is categorically false.
That said, with cpu, ram and storage prices the way they are right now, prices won't be dropping soon. But there is hope long term.
I hear you though on the cost. The Mac Mini was a killer deal a year ago, especially if you could get it on sale for <$500. Not today though.
All the pricing is bad everywhere.
If anything, the longer you hold your laptop, the more you amortize the cost, and can more easily afford the next one.
My work machine went from an M1 with 32GB to an M4 with 24GB and it definitely wasn't worth the time to upgrade.
I had to prove the OP wrong though; my M1 Max's keyboard died this year, and I had to upgrade to the M5 max this season, after the hikes. I kissed 9k EUR goodbye for something not much better functionally than the M1 Max it replaced, bought for 3.4k Canadian dollars in the wonderful 2021 (that was barely over 3200 EUR back then).
https://support.apple.com/en-us/111945
EDIT:
Yes, 13" ≈ 14"
The form factor of this new 14" PROLED and the old 2019 13" is nearly the same (due to smaller bezels)
I would rather have 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports than 3 Thunderbolt 4 ports, an SD card slot I won't use, and 1 HDMI port that can only be used for HDMI instead of whatever the hell I need it to be another Thunderbolt port can be.
I would rather have a ThinkPad X9 15p Aura Edition, which has 3x thunderbolt, SD Card, HDMI, and USB-A, all at the same time with no dongle.
They also let you customize what ports you want in your laptop. You don't have to customize them. You don't have to pull them out. It's still an advantage.
You can also replace your ports easily if they get physical damage.
They can also be used on any brand of machine or even a smartphone. They're just Thunderbolt/USB-C.
They don't take space away from the battery, the battery on the Framework 13 Pro is almost the exact same size as the one in the MacBook Pro 14, and as of the M5 model the Framework 13 Pro gets better battery life than that Mac.
Because the Dongle-heads do have one thing right, one port that can be turned into lots of other kinds of ports with a dongle is more versatile than a port that can only be a video out, especially when the device doesn't have a ton of room for lots of ports.
But I also only have an m1 16” so it may not be a brand new change
https://support.apple.com/en-us/111883
https://support.apple.com/en-us/126320
Macbook airs are lighter because they are smaller and lack fans (and maybe for other reasons too) so it is not comparable, but it is one of the reasons I like fanless laptops (whatever cuts a bit the weight for mobility is welcome).
It's so bad that the first time I used my M series I thought I needed to RMA it because the display must be broken it it looks this bad, right? Nope.
[0]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/m0zq6aEnGWs/sddefault.jpg
If this was the case, one the one hand they should be criticized for releasing such bad laptops on the market but if they had already decided on developing their own silicon then maybe it made sense to just accept that some generations of Macbook were going to have thermal issues and focus all efforts on the future.
Edit: I was incorrect, I thought I had clicked the 16" spec page but had not. The 16" MacBook is still at 100 Wh.
https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/proled-xdr-display/specs/
The 14" went from 72.4Wh to 72.6Wh.
For those not aware, the 100Wh limitation is not Apple, but imposed on them by the airline industry (IATA)[1]
Anything over >100Wh && <160Wh requires airline approval at individual passenger level. Anything >160Wh is classified as dangerous goods and must be prepared and packaged correctly and put in the hold.
[1] https://www.iata.org/contentassets/6fea26dd84d24b26a7a1fd578...
The airline rules are a bit arbitrary. They have allowances for mobility devices but don't seem to take any extra precautions for them when they have bigger batteries. There are still a lot of dangerous gaps in airline safety when it comes to lithium batteries.
They're absolutely arbitrary. From what I've seen, one of the major problems is wild variation in quality. An 80Wh battery from six-random-letters-off-Amazon is going to be more dangerous than a 160Wh battery from a reputable manufacturer.
is the touch part of the display toggle-able? i don't mind a better display but i have no, not a single desire ever to touch it.
- Most OLED PCs were not anywhere as bright as the old MBP miniLED display.
- Almost all OLED PCs have terrible blue shift when viewed at an angle.
- Apple miniLED XDR displays are no slouches either. They are not quite OLED, but they implemented the dimming zones very well with uniform backlighting and deep blacks.
I have not seen Apple's on MBP, but I bet it meets or exceeds iPad Pro Tandem OLED which does not have the two problems above.
So no, it is not the same as the decade old PC OLED. And I have ignored all the potential durability issues.
Also don’t understand the iPhone duo, I’d rather have a normal iPhone and an iPad Air. Cheaper, and better for mobile use and for couch media consumption.
I think some of those folks should face some facts:
- The notch on the MacBook Air and Pro lineups is unnecessarily huge and embarrassing. It’s obvious that Apple intended to implement FaceID and couldn’t get it into the notch by their deadline, then they just left the huge notch there with barely any software consideration for it, like how your menu bar icons and menus can just disappear if there isn’t enough room with no recourse.
- There is no design or cost reason for Apple to be this late on offering a touch screen on their laptops. There is no downside to a customer who buys one and doesn’t want a touch screen, they can just disable it.
- The 60Hz displays on the Air are not necessary for any kind of product quality or cost reason and are simply below-par for what you can get on similarly priced Windows laptops. 100% artificial product line anchoring.
- The idea that there was no such thing an OLED display that was “good enough for a MacBook Pro” before 2026 is absurd.
Switching to OLED in 2016 makes zero sense when brightness and burn in issues are not solved.
The only ones that work as a unified product, yes.
I just got a 16" MacBook Pro with an M5 pro chipset and its total pig compared to my 15.6" HP ZBook Power G8.
The only area I can see where Apple is still holding their own is their UI/UX has always been buttery smooth compared to Windows or Linux. Not a fan the new liquid glass, but its still a very smooth running UI regardless.
When they introduced the Apple Pencil and people were like “haha it’s a stylus”, the thing was decidedly NOT a stylus (it actually couldn’t be used to control some parts of the UI). It was an actual digital pen, something that used to be specialized and expensive external hardware, and it worked beautifully with the iPad. It was literally “stylus but GOOD”. I saw it and thought “people will make memes about this, but Apple totally gets it”.
When they introduced the Vision Pro, VR was just kind of shit. Bulky, ugly, uncool. Vision Pro tried to resolve some of the issues, but it was still kind of half-assed. Like they wanted to have a VR device but couldn’t actually make it work. Good resolution, but not great. Vergence-accomodation conflict not addressed. Still bulky and ugly. Isolation kind of addressed (with the AR-ish UX and the “see-through” display), but not enough.
Now we got the foldable iPhone and a touchscreen MacBook.
Foldable phones are still awfully delicate and the whole concept doesn’t have a clear “killer” use case. There’s no new UX, no new features, it’s just an iPad Mini in a marginally smaller device that’s expensive as hell. Apple didn’t even try to address the obvious shortcomings, they just built the same stupid thing everyone else is failing to sell.
Touchscreen laptops still wobble, they still get covered with fingerprints, they’re still uncomfortable and there’s still no meaningful UX. This thing doesn’t even try to address any of that. Their marketing images literally just show hands hovering above the keyboard and touching the screen for no good reason. They’ve been mocking touchscreen laptops for years now and now they release one like it’s the most obvious thing ever. 1984 vibes.
And the HomeView, which also feels like it lacks a clear “killer” use case.
Maybe I’m just not the intended audience for any of these products, but I’m also starting to wonder if Apple are throwing things at a wall and hoping something will stick.
It doesn't have its own app store. It runs the apps on your phone, so feel free to add any of the 2,000,000+ apps on the iPhone App Store to it.
First Liquid Glass, then the 17’s design, then ads and ecosystem subscription bloat, then Duo/HomeView, and now the touchscreen Mac. Jobs is rolling in his grave.
I am a dev with a m1 air 16gb and I have 0 reason to update yet, it's been 6 years now, laptops are solved for 90% of people, they need to introduce gimmicks to create demand
How come they just released a Macbook Pro yesterday with the latest M6 chip, to release the day after another Macbook Pro with a year old chip?
Why is there not one Macbook and one Macbook Pro?
Ironic: when they introduced the Apple Watch, the narrative around it was "whatever it will be, it WON'T be just another smartwatch" and yet it was.
Game + Video
Messaging + Browsing
App + Development
Notes + Research
etc
I want to know why I want my phone to cost twice as much and have a dozen delicate moving parts in order to fold. Like the movie quote: “sell me this pen”. I’m waiting for someone to sell me a folding phone. I thought Apple would be able to do it, but they haven’t even tried.
But they aren't iPhones.
Then again, it really doesn't matter to me at all what the screen looks like or what features it has, I use my MBP docked 99% of the time with the screen closed, to the point that my next computer will almost certainly be a Mac Studio and I'll just use my MBP on the rare occasions I need it on the go.
No, you don't get it. She wants the keyboard, she wants a first class desktop experience, and she wants a touch screen.
Watching her work is... different. She mostly uses her laptop on her lap, on the couch, scrolling and "clicking" with touch... and when she needs to type something she slides it back slightly, and types. Almost never uses the track pad.
If I'd never used a laptop before I'd probably do the exact same thing as the kids!
Keyboard and mouse don't give you any more autonomy over the application developers state machine.
I'm not sure I understand the claim of "being in control". The UX is different, sure, often. But that's not "control" over the design of the application.
On a touchscreen, I can tap. That's it. Select? Tap. Move? Tap. Highlight? Tap. The only one that makes sense is draging for moving, but even that's a pain in the butt because it often misinterprets the tap+hold duration that's necessary before it works. When I'm editing text (navigating, cut-n-paste, etc.), it gets what I want wrong more often than it gets it right, I mean like 80/20.
With the phone, they had a green field to design an entirely new UX for touch interfaces, so there's no legacy to blame.
Some people don't intuitively use trackpads so they'll use a mouse and if they discover touchscreens that becomes a feature that needs to come with any laptop after that.
It's pretty eye opening really. If it weren't for seeing someone close to me do it, I'd be in the same camp, wondering who in their right mind would use their laptop like that.
Another possible use is when I want to show some page or content to someone, I always prefer manipulating it with my fingers, instead of "remotely" control it from the trackpad and a mouse.
And if it has stylus support it's cool for drawing (like my current laptop) but Macs do not have a hinge suited for that I think (no 360° support and their focus on a "weak hinge" for the weird and useless obsession from tech content creators of being able to lift the hinge with one finger, something I actually not really value because I sometimes wish that the hinge was stronger and sometimes weaker).
Finally there are also multitouch apps like the piano shown on the presentation and iPad apps I guess, but on macOS I think this matters less (Mac apps are not made with this in mind at all, iPad apps are limited).
I'm sure there are good use-cases, but IMO everyday average-home-user computing is not one of them.
Sugar in sodas, burger buns and ketchup for example is linked to type 2 diabetes.
Touch things with your hands. Your body literally needs it to be healthy. Avoiding it ONLY makes you sicker in the end.
I totally agree with exposing immune system...but at the same time, I guess I am weak enough that there is still downtime in the aftermath when I go out into the city(especially during seasonal transitions and when visiting busy packed rooms).
You don't have to have the other extreme of touching every dirty spot especially in a org like mcdonalds which is more likely than not to have people who dont respect basic hygiene. At the same time you dont need the extreme of not touching anything. There is a middle ground.
A touch screen would be actually better than a laptop, but android tablet won't cut it (we make some of the test hardware so are in control of the drivers, but for most of it we don't)
As an occasional "pinch to zoom that thing centered on my fingers, and adjust it to show what I want to someone 10 feet away" tool: it's fantastic. I could learn the key combo, but "use two fingers" is dramatically easier to remember and control.
Or to guide someone through something on screen, you can just tap it rather than having them mouse to precisely the control you meant. (yes this is often a terrible idea for teaching, but not everyone has fine motor control and sometimes there's random interruptions from other software - having them push those away can make it harder for them to learn/remember the actual goal)
Or for signing your name on a document, or anything else even slightly related to drawing.
Or if it's propped up on your chest in bed and your hands are naturally more comfortable on the screen than the keyboard (which is far too close).
Or if it's dark or you're at a low angle and can't read the keys.
It doesn't cost much, doesn't influence the display much, and is very useful occasionally. A great hardware feature to have IMO.
Perhaps, but on a Mac you can already do this via the touch pad.
I've never felt the need for a touchscreen when e.g. using Miro because I can scroll and all directions and zoom intuitively on the Mac's trackpad.
I found the touch useful for momentary interactions, like buttons. It's quicker and easier to reach up and hit NEXT than it is to find the cursor, move it to the button, and click.
Definitely don't use it nearly as much as on a phone, but it is useful for surfing.
Odd feature omissions in Apple-land get debated endlessly just because there are so many random things that Apple arbitrarily decides you can’t do, and the marketing excuse we get is that they’re being intentional or holistic.
But I also only ever bought 2-in-1s. Not an obvious “must have” for me, but I prefer closing it “the other way around”, holding laptop in panorama rotation, when reading a pdf or something. I really don’t like reading longer texts on laptop opened in a typical “clamshell” way.
Unlike you I don't see myself switching to the Studio or Mini. My MBP has been extremely performant and its capability of on the go work makes it the perfect product IMO!
If nothing else, the more complex hinges create significantly higher failure risk.
Anyway that experience made me think that touching a super high image quality screen will only lead to heartbreak. Better to use a cheap screen if you want to touch a lot.
Always enjoyed touchscreens on my laptops. Nice thing is, you can just ignore it when you don't want it. It doesn't affect battery life, or thinness, or brightness, or clarity provided the implementation is good; it's just a bonus input method. I'll never say no to a laptop offering a touch option.
My retired parents. When they borrow my laptop, I see them trying to touch my regular non-touch screen.
However I have noticed that when I am dictating more using typeleas or whisperflow I use the touchscreen more as it’s more faster and has a good flow if you wanted speed
Maybe this is the reason they doing it now
It's not a tablet-doable thing, really, and I don't really want to take the effort to get it in an app store. But adding touch-able buttons made it a bit nicer UI overall, so I'm glad I did it. Now this person, and anyone else, can also use it with a touch screen if so desired.
I can and do live without it on other devices (my desktop PC), but it's a nice addition that should just be standard equipment everywhere.
Non-touchscreen laptops are an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
I dislike fingerprints too much to feel that temptation, but when using a phone I do feel a kind of dread every time I want to select some text or precisely position a cursor.
When I have it folded, it's intuitive to use the touchscreen like a tablet. But I wouldn't want to run the i3 setup I have on my desktop. The Wayland UI bandwagon and huge touch targets are for something after all.
I use the trackpad most of the time, even for right and middle clicks (2/3 finger click), but I prefer the buttons when I have to select, and the middle button when I need to paste repeatedly. I don't use the touchscreen much, but it's the easiest way to swipe between virtual desktops on Linux. The touchscreen works well with the laptop turned "inside out" (my kid's laptop does that). Screen doesn't get smudges because of its texture. The example shown mentions the desktop swipe, and the piano keys are for setting up a chord, not playing a tune, both of which make sense (and try to set up a chord without multi-touch).
A bit of a shame there is no M6 Pro and M6 Max...
A fun aside is a New York Times reporter pulled up some drawing app on his phone at a holiday party to show my kid and was visibly shocked when my kid just started creating using the on screen icons before the guy could even start tutoring him. I don't recall if the Microsoft thing had any intro or demo that guided him on the tools a little or if he just absorbed it.
But it sucks to use application designed for mouse with touch.
So it's not that "touch is bad UX modality" it's "applications should be designed for touch as first class citizen" and by design I mean _proper_ design as in from the ground up not just prettier colors and slihgtly tweaked layout.
My boss wont have a non touchscreen laptop purely for ease of scrolling up and down reports and around spreadsheets
So it is just table stakes at this point.
I have never had this. I don't think this is the expectation among people using laptops either? Pressing escape is much faster, doesn't obscure the screen, and doesn't require me to aim.
Scrolling through long docs is also comfortable with touch if it’s on your lap or a flat surface directly in front of you. You scroll with the thumb while your hand/arm rests comfortably.
I mostly use MBPs now and resort to using my iPad as a mirrored screen to draw on slides. It is hacky.
This includes a lot of remoting into Windows machines (using Jump) where I use the trackpad more, but the touch is still really nice to have.
No idea why anyone would want a laptop form factor with a touch screen; seems like an RSI nightmare. Especially since you can already pinch-and-zoom and do other gestures with the existing touch pads!
I have no idea how this keeps getting repeated. No one with a touchscreen laptop is just hovering their arms in front of the screen like a zombie for hours.
It’s another input. You use it when it makes sense. For some, that’s pretty frequent. For others like you, maybe never.
Only the Surface line, as in where the tablet is the main form with an optional keyboard makes sense here.
I guess for the most part if you like this you'll use it and if you don't you'll just ignore it.
Sometimes I use it in Linux. Sometimes it makes my system freeze, requiring a hard restart. Perhaps it would be wise to disable it in BIOS.
But with a conventional laptop I've only ever accidentally used the touch screen.
> Steve Jobs told a crowd at an Apple event in 2010 that the company did “tons of user testing” on putting touchscreens on MacBooks and decided against it because, he said, “It doesn’t work. It’s ergonomically terrible.”
> While previewing Mac OS X Lion in 2010, Jobs explained the main issue was comfort, saying, “After a short period of time, you start to fatigue, and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off.”
Design is the art of compromise. A laptop works. Physical keyboards are better than onscreen keyboards. Laptops with detachable tablets end up with a heavier screen so the base has to be heavier so it doesn't tip over.
I honestly don't know what the use case for touchscreen Macbooks really is. OLED? Sure. Why not? But touch? Who is this for?
[1]: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/steve-jobs-said-a-touchs...
If you lock the screen position with hardware it just lifts the keyboard when you touch just a little too hard.
You need stability for touch and a superlight laptop just does not have that.
All the cons are real (which Apple figured out in the aughts), but enshittification at a corporate bureaucracy is inevitable without a strong person in charge.
(Like most millennials, she grew up with computers and even works on a desktop every day; there's something about the medium that makes her think "this has a touch screen".)
When I was buying them a second one and asked about touchscreen, they said they don't care anymore for it, so second laptop also was without touchscreen.
While it worked, it was useful for me, mostly the drawing I guess was the most different, as I used to use Wacom tablets for that, but seeing exactly where you draw makes things a lot easier.
If I was still in the market for a laptop, I'd probably again get a touch-based one, as long as it's not Microsoft, as that was the first and last time I bought any Microsoft hardware. Probably not Apple either as the OS and software is such a mess, so probably leaning Asus or Thinkpad with Linux on it, if anything.
At this point it's a huge loss to not have it on a display. Don't like it? Then shut up and don't use it. Don't yuck others' yum.
I guess if you have a laptop that functions in tablet mode, it makes sense (I don't love tablet modes either).
Someone called out the surface - which is great with the surface pen. I'll agree this is a great use case. I would say this use case is rarer than the prior use cases where you use your meat sticks.
It's neat I guess, but he finger is a terrible mouse, obstructs the screen, and it's super awkward. It is a spec sheet checkbox like so many things where people do the "But it doesn't have this {must have} so it sucks" bit of nonsense, and Apple fell for it.
"""
Does anyone actually use <the new feature>?
I personally prefer <the status quo> and don't think I ever have a need for <the new feature>.
Also, I don't like <some drawback that comes with adopting the new feature>.
But that's just me, I'm a simple guy. Like and subscribe!
"""
Whenever someone wants to point out something on my screen, I’ve already mentally prepared for the next step of having to wipe the screen, because it’s impossible to point at something without contacting the glass. Apparently.
So this device would not be for me either.
I'm a lawyer by trade and am forced to lean on GUIs with little keyboard-control support. When I code (for pleasure), I don't miss the touchscreen, but I often miss it when I'm trying to read PDFs and Word documents on the go.
On Macbooks the trackpad is so large that you can reach it even from the sides of the laptop and the two finger scrolling actually works without second thought.
I don't really expect anyone to use it as a touchscreen, but if they do, at least that will work too.
There's a lot of small niceties that pile up into a better experience, the sister comments cover a bunch of those, so I'll focus on a macos specific nice point:
iPad and iPhone apps can now get direct touch when running on a laptop, instead of the mouse mode. With this, there is now a perfect platform able to run Mac, iOS and iPad apps outside of the ill-fated Vision Pro.
That's too little to late for me, but I think many will appreciate the benefits.
I mean just imagine how jarring it is to go from touching the macbook screen to mess with your app to needing to input text. Whether you use the macbook keyboard, or the on screen keyboard, it's just kinda rough.
The only situation I could see it being useful in is if it came with a pressure-sensitive pen, so you could use it for sketching and drawing. But even then, that would only really work well if the screen folded all the way around, so it would sit flush against the base or if it opened 180 degrees, so you could lay it flat on a table without it wobbling around on a hinge.
Maybe the the intuitive and natural way of interaction is touch and the generations between the boomers and the Gen Z are the only ones who command the skillset to use computers in any other way.
Seems like it would be useful for app development being able to do touchscreen for the iOS and iPadOS simulators.
Even now, I find myself resisting the urge to tap things on my Macbook display as it is.
The world moved on. Touch is standard, and Steve Jobs was incredibly wrong with his weird opinions.
This is like people arguing that a computer mouse is not necessary in 1990.
It used to be: think different
It used to be: It just works…
Now we got “apple intelligence” and subscriptions all over the place and also the lock-in feels stronger over time. Don’t even get me started that one can’t easily replace the battery oneself. They gradually convinced us that reduced repairability is fine.
I got my first MacBook Pro in 2006… things were quite different back then.
Anyway, I’ve decided I wanted to get away from BigTech a while ago. Apple is the hardest part for me. They used to have this annoyance-free usability that I loved so much. iPhone Duo, Touchscreen on the Mac, liquid glass, visionPro, etc. are all valid things to go after and I don’t think these are bad things per se. But it is not what I care about. And clearly the focus has shifted away from the values I used to share with this company about what constitutes a good product.
I took the hit on the ownership/control side because their products were so ‘seamless’.
Now I hope the Framework and Fairphone (with eOS) have matured enough to not regret when I am getting off the Apple-train. I don’t expect a frictionless experience - it just has to be sufficiently annoyance-free. I’ll happily take some rough edges in exchange for greater control and ownership.
“Unfortunately” their products are really sturdy and it will take a while until my M3 MacBookAir and iPhone 14 need to be replaced ^^
- Steve Jobs
Apple: check our new vertical touchscreen!
The same kind of people are now doing it again, it will take time but every decision apple has been taking is giving me a bad taste.
even the evolution of macos and IOS. They are much closer to windows and android now.
ESPECIALLY the evolution of macos and ios.
Personally I find I miss touch screen after using my iPad and Magic Keyboard for extended periods and then switching back to the laptop. I mostly use the keyboard but it’s very nice to be able to scroll, position things, etc
Its hard to describe but its surprisingly comfortable looking and allows her to tap her way through everything without actually having to hold the screen up. If she lets go, the hinge keeps it up. If she needs to type, she just skoots it back back slightly
"In addition, a newly designed hinge provides greater stability while using Touch, and advanced video stabilization automatically smooths the camera feed in real time while using Touch on a video call."
https://tech.yahoo.com/ai/apple-intelligence/articles/ergono...
I got my first laptop with a digital pen and touchscreen in 2008 or so. They were rare back then, but nothing groundbreaking new. The touchscreen did suck though.
Now it's a "how will you still need an iPad" problem, that they have solved perfectly because it's a usability problem.
I hope this sells well enough that they might later go the EXTRA step to a Pencil supported 360-hinged MBP.
I'm a hardcore iPad Pro + Pencil lover. And I'm very tired of carrying both a MacBook for the full OS + keyboard, PLUS a whole separate tablet for sketching, illustration, annotation, etc.
Apple better have some better use examples than THAT.
I have a good 88-note hammer action stage piano. I love it for acoustic pianos and it's OK for electric pianos (Rhodes, Wurlitzer) but it sucks a bit for organ, clavinet and synths.
I've seen people play Hammond really, really well on a weighted keybeds but it's much easier to just plug a second cheap(er) synth action controller in for organ parts.
I've never met anyone that really liked playing a tablet screen though. :P
Repliers: stop pretending you make music. You don’t and it shows. Producers are going to love this.
I don't think I'd every want to "play" on it except as a last resort but it could definitely be handy for other virtual interfaces.
Imagine a knob per function synth or a modular setup being able to go straight the control in question would be useful.
A foldable iPhone, macbooks with touch displays, apple watches constantly listening to your conversations, dropping updates for not so old devices like AWU 1, I understand that I am not a target audience for those products but to me this just speaks a lack of vision for the company and their products. I mean this is one of the most valuable companies in the world with some of the best people working there and this is the best that we can get a foldable iphone and a touch display I don't believe it.
The last keynote also was probably the worst one I ever saw couple of years ago I couldn't wait for keynotes this year I am totally over them we are at the Tron meme scene where one the board member asked what was new in the new OS version and seems to be just the number - [0]
[0] - Hacking Encom's new operating system – TRON: Legacy (2010) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeh3E67brBs&t=115s
I think that's likely the logic they operated from inside. Personally, I agree something like the AWU should have been supported longer because longevity is one of the core defining elements of the premium watch market, and thats the market they chose to enter. To Apple's eyes though these are all still 'gadget-like computers' rather than 'computer-like gadgets' [1], and thus the expectations and culture of the fast moving computer industry dominates.
[1]: https://daringfireball.net/2015/04/the_apple_watch
These are the devices people use all day every day. Iterating on them makes sense.
They are also working on AirPods with vision, released a home hub with display, released AR goggles, releasing GPU heavy servers, creating a framework for AI interfaces, …
Are you hoping for a replicator or transporter?
- Not solderable components so I can upgrade my machine, ok maybe this is too much I will just take an easy to replace battery. - Longer lasting battery for wearables like watches if the competition can make a battery last 15 days I think Apple can too especially given how efficient the arm chips are in their laptops. - Some hardware design changes Apple watch is literarily the same design since its launch, not to mention that the Apple watch ultra had different shades of orange for the button and the wheel I mean come on. - Software wise I really don't mind the new glass design system but I don't understand why I can't have basic features that an intern can push I literally bought and sold the apple watch like 5 times because I just wanted a simple step counter widget I didn't want a third party app a simple step counter widget and they released it this year 2026 a step counter widget maybe it is harder to do than a replicator who knows.
I really want a fridge with easily replaceable condenser, washing machine with easily replaceable bearing, and a Subaru with great access to spark plugs... You still live in era of 2003 phones where battery was accessible via a flap, but at the same time you want a top tier computer in your pocket and waterproofing. You people are ridiculous sometimes.
The Mac itself still hasn't proven that it has a place in the future. It's not any more profitable than the iPad in revenue breakdowns, and doesn't come close to the install base of the iPhone. Compared to Windows PCs and Linux servers, Apple has entrenched the Mac as a second-class citizen for traditional computing. Instead of pushing to make macOS an unavoidable flagship operating system, Apple promotes insular API/SDK usage and seemingly leans towards a less-profitable B2C market segment. Tim Cook's obsession over service revenue caused Apple to forfeit the high performance ARM market, which is a shame, since Apple Silicon is quite competitive in ways that the Vision Pro and HomeView will never be.
Once they go down that path, they open themselves up to whatever technology changes and drifts happen in an entirely different market, which right now is going through a tectonic shift with AI. We don't even know what happens in that market in 1-2 years let alone 5 or 10 or more. The business cycles are different, the customers are different, the demands are different. How do you even begin to plan for that?
You're zeroing in on a technical advantage Apple currently has with silicon while ignoring the lack of advantage they have everywhere else in their operation. That'll never happen and it's the antithesis of a half century of company history.
As far as the Mac, it's the truck that does the heavy work so the other platforms like iOS are light [1]. That's been the guiding philosophy, the sandbox it plays within.
[1]: https://youtu.be/ZLEzEL35Iyc?t=2662
> If Apple is going to renege their stupid decisions, now is a great time to find a place for Apple Silicon
Apple's B2C obsession isn't smart. Their service revenue is quite literally deemed illegal and exploitative in several courts, they cannot rely on the App Store and iCloud-style tie-ins forever. The progress that they've made on the A-series chips goes largely unnoticed to a cohort of users that scrolls TikTok and Polymarket. The progress of the M-series chips has not moved the needle on macOS' market share even with 7 years of sales marked down. Right now, they're lining themselves up for the worst of both worlds; being shackled to low-margin B2C products that aren't legally allowed to ammortize costs with lock-in "ecosystem" services. Apple will be forced to make changes if the status-quo continues to punish their business strategy.
So... why not lean into their strengths? iPhone customers will rarely notice fast single-core performance, but devops and enterprises will. Apple fundamentally supports expansion via PCI on Apple Silicon, and their SOCs demonstrably handle Linux, CUDA and Vulkan without any significant bottlenecks. The Mac Pro was 90% of the complete package for a particularly rich type of customer, and Apple refused to invest in the last 10% to uphold a pointless grudge. This stupid decision is why terrible ARM SOCs like Ampere and Grace have dominated the AI buildout even when Apple Silicon destroys them on-paper. Depreciating the Mac Pro is a solipsistic, insane decision that formally abandons Apple's attempts at dominating anything except the prosumer market. This isn't even an Xserve style slip-up, it's a radical steering decision that prevents customers like Pixar from even considering Apple Silicon for a server farm.
> As far as the Mac, it's the truck that does the heavy work
For now. Apple has laid the groundwork for what comes after, though: https://developer.apple.com/xcode-cloud/
Some facts to consider tho since I think you're underestimating the apple silicon change:
MacOS market share went from 7.5% (2020) -> 9% (2025)
Mac gross margins are harder to estimate but suggest a change from 24% (2016) [1] -> 41% (2025) [2] if you divide profits from revenues. These exclude services.
PC market profit share is >60%, as in Apple get most of the money made in the PC market.
So the idea that apple silicon didn't really move the needle isn't supported. Apple also cares about profit share far far more than market share. Market share can be a liability because of antitrust and supporting less desirable users and use cases. A few decades ago they chose not to get into the Netbook fad when everyone else was because of this philosophy, so its not new.
Apple is certainly ramping up their server hardware as it seems to be angling to run models on their own silicon, and Xcode cloud is a natural extension of that activity. I'm not sure that suggests selling servers or server capacity though. The end result is the same biz model: the people using this server capacity are still primarily individual customers.
The main question about the AI buildout right now is a ton of money is being invested and the returns on that capital are highly speculative. Everyone is investing, sure, but there's a lot of economic headwinds and its unclear where the value will ultimately accrue. If Apple jumps into something, they tend to do it with a decade-long perspective. What you're arguing for is that Apple should have jumped in early, which regardless of B2B v B2C, is not Apple's style.
If apple were to get into that and leverage their silicon advantage, they'd need to significantly increase their supply of silicon. They're already pretty much at capacity serving B2C, and they typically do big capital investments with places like TSMC to build out the capacity they need for nextgen process. Same with ram, probably even more of a limited resource right now. If they were to jump into enterprise in a big way, it wouldn't just be 'make more chips' it would be drastically increasing their capex to expand capacity, and that takes years of lead time to do. The AI buildout is very new, its really all just in the last 2-3 years. I just don't think they could have delivered on this idea right now, based on what they knew in ~2024 and the capacity they have available. If anything their strategy, whether intentional or not, is looking rather prudent. But another month or two passes and maybe that will change too. Things are changing very fast right now.
[1]: https://asymco.com/2016/11/02/wherefore-art-thou-macintosh/
[2]: https://asymco.com/2026/03/18/the-biggest-surprise-of-the-ma...
I'd argue the supply chain is a non-issue, too. Apple's chips are a high/low mix, and most of them go to TSMC when they really shouldn't. Apple's A-series SOCs could be manufactured by Intel or Samsung without setting them back too far on fab nodes. Mac chips could remain TSMC products, and Apple could pivot their high-memory SKUs to the Mac Pro form factor instead of forcing it into a non-scalable Studio chassis. That would give them a product that the industry could start to buy again, and they could even offer it as a consumer product if they wanted to thumb up their nose at Nvidia. The current Studio is a sad flagship to sell, reminiscent of the Trash Can form factor with even fewer hardware features.
It's Ternus' choice, and he seems to be open to new ideas. Apple isn't immune to bad decisionmaking though, and I bet that future generations will be confused why the ARM datacenter was dominated by non-entities like Ampere and Nvidia selling low-performance licensed cores.
They worked so hard to "think different", get a following with people that would willingly spend more for a product inferior technically because it was just bold.
i am the first one to appreciate the direction apple is taking, as a customer it will bring even more competition to the windows laptop market because everything will be similar, but when i put my self in steve jobs shoe, i want to puke.
It's a nonissue when you look at the state of macOS attention to detail nowadays, regardless of which side of the fence you're on.
To begin with, yes. The decline only started around ten years ago.
So, it may makes things a little easier for some GUI scripting. I can also see the UX improving for some disabilities, but I know that is merely coincidental rather than intentional.
Same applies to spaces where there's also delay applied before it appears for whatever reason. It would be nice if this fixed (on non-touch Macs as well).
Touch affordances and UI does have to be visible, and there is only one screen. So the touch affordances and mouse affordances are mutually exclusive: targets get larger, padding expands, UI gets dumbed down, etc etc.
Of course, there's the extremely common case of keyboard support being half-assed or missing from GUI apps. But that's not mouse affordances making things worse, that's developers just not having the time or inclination to have great keyboard support.
Whereas, touch affordances seem like they'll be a lot more disruptive.
1. Since many iOS apps can run on Apple silicon Macs now, this might be useful for apps where touch matters for more than just clicking buttons.
2. For mobile app developers, you can actually try real touches events on the simulator/emulator while developing and get better sense of how it feels without needing to pull out a physical device.
I have a touchscreen on my Googlebook (I know, early adopter issues galore, but I love mine now). I basically forget I have it most of the time, but every now and then, it's been cool.
(for comparison, M4 pro has 273 GB/s and M1 pro has 200GB/s and M1 max has 400GB/s)
M5 Pro (20-core GPU): 307 GB/s memory bandwidth (supports 24 GB, 48 GB, 64 GB).
M5 Max (32-core GPU): 460 GB/s memory bandwidth. (36 GB)
M5 Max (40-core GPU): 614 GB/s memory bandwidth (supports 48 GB, 64 GB, 128 GB)
For an M5 max top bin with 128GB Ram:
- mac studio: $5,899.00 (with 2TB ssd bump to match the default macbook sku)
- macbook 16: $7,399.00
Portability gets a hit but I feel you can have a thin client and let the studio do the heavy lifting back at your home/studio(heh).
- The general consensus seems to be that the frontier models are kind of (understandably) "benchmaxxed" towards coding benchmarks and have suffered in some other areas like writing, art, etc. Lot of tweaked/specialized models on huggingface
- Getting around the censorship in commercial models
- While local models don't match frontier coding agents, you can run them for multiple 24/7 with a long running goal (The fans in Macs are presumably not built to run 24/7, but this can be mitigated to a considerable extent IME by simply pointing a desktop fan at it, and you can throttle things in software. On the discrete GPU side of things, you can usually get big power savings without much performance impact by throttling the GPU clock; things are usually bottlenecked on memory)
- Even small 27B/35B models are getting darn good, definitely more than powerful enough for classification etc... you don't need 128GB to run them
- Right now, providers like OpenAI are running at huge losses. At some point, they are going to need to turn a profit, at which point they may get significantly more expensive, and "hosting your own" may make more economic sense than it does today -- and be a valuable professional skill, even.
- Even more speculative: perhaps the future for many applications is training and running your own hyper-specialized models. Right now, training your own is nowhere near cost effective on self-hosted hardware vs. renting GPUs
Note: whether any of these use cases are "worth it" is up to the individual. I'm not trying to sell anybody on the idea. I don't personally do much local LLM stuff at the moment, but it's attractive and I've been close to pulling the trigger...
My raw data alone is terabytes, and it takes hundreds of GB sometimes to run very simple analyses. So there's no way I can have a local AI orchestrating the analyses locally.
But I realize some people have different kinds of data. So I'm interested to hear how exactly people use local models.
The point where it'd make sense for me is if someone makes a compact machine with 512 of unified memory in a couple of years and it costs less than a down payment for a house...
It's more "software & gear discussion" than "use cases", admittedly, I think because the people looking for software/gear discussion already have use cases in mind that they're trying to achieve.
It’s quite evident that the api models can and have been nerfed at the provider’s discretion, then there’s the abliteration aspect too(api models refusing what they consider “harmful”) which makes the case for local.
But then you have to compare to buying a GB200, sticking it in a closet and sharing it out in a workgroup and having a lower specced laptop. Decisions..
Rumor is that Apple is skipping the M6 Pro and Max chips this year in favor of releasing the M7 Pro and Max sometime next year.
The odds of > 128GB are very good, AMD have already bumped the Strix Halo to 192GB of RAM and both AMD and Nvidia should have successors to their offerings in 2028 that will compete with the M7 Pro and Max. Both AMD and Nvidia will be using TSMC N2 too so the competition will be ramping up.
I liked the old Gold they used in the mid 2010s too.
Black is 100% the least appealing.
Basically $400 premium for a screen upgrade. I'm sure the screen is brilliant but mini LED is very much not bad. It's a real bummer that we seem to be entering an era where each year with tech it leans more towards a new product offering that is more but for more money versus getting more for our dollar consistently.
OLED feels pretty established at this point... could they really not have pulled off just making that the default screen on pro's or is this just a price gouge for a premium feature.
Blender definitely benefits from more RAM. The M-series Macs are good for doing renders. If you're a hobbyist or independent creator, you're more likely to be rendering on your laptop than having a fancy render farm. (That's exactly how the movie Flow was done.)
Musicians know software instruments can eat into RAM, and streaming things like sample-based instruments off of disc is non viable for real time audio. Real world use can have very large numbers of tracks with many software instruments and VST chains. Ableton is a minimum of 8GB for the DAW, and things like Kontakt will multiply that fast.
And people usually have Chrome, chat apps and other things open while they work.
1. The trackpad on it is so god awful that using any sort of multi finger gesture is a non-starter. In this case the touch screen works significantly better.
2. I wanted to draw in a whiteboarding tool. Drawing with my finger is not ideal so I tried a passive stylus. Drawing with a passive rubber-tipped stylus leaves a lot to be desired. I would much rather use an active stylus or a pen display for artists if I could.
Apple is known for the best trackpads. They have set the bar high and they have consistently met that bar for over a decade. I don't need a touch screen for gestures when their trackpad feels just as good. To my next point, there is no pen support on this screen.
Given this, I feel the touch screen is going to be seen just like the touch bar, a pretty feature that receives some good niche support, but ultimately does not align with how the majority of users use a laptop. I just hope there's an option to turn off the touch screen when they inevitably start shifting this display down to the base model.
probably the only reason -- and this is mitigated with a mouse.
Apple has always positioned the Pro as having the best display in a laptop. Now that’s no longer true.
Are we really moving to 3 tier of laptop displays: Air, Pro, and Pro with ProLED XDR?
That seems unnecessarily confusing for consumers.
“Pro” used to mean you were getting Apple’s best hardware, designed for "professionals".
Now “Pro” doesn't mean that anymore.
It's really hard to maintain a perfectly positioned product lineup while managing underlying shifts in technologies. It's usually the availability and price of new components that cause this, along with needing to iron out issues before bringing a technology fully mainstream. Here the touchscreen is new, the hinge is new, and the screen tech is new to the platform. You can't always just drop something that on the mass market.
For Apple, product & hardware come first, marketing and positioning is secondary.
You have the MacBook Pro with three tiers of SoCs, each with binning options.
There was already an option for screen coatings and now an option for a new screen type.
That’s not to mention storage and RAM choices.
Its still the MacBook with HDR display and active cooling and more inputs. I’m not sure why options are an issue
Up until today, Apple's positioning was:
* Consumer = Air (light workloads, no pro use cases like video where you need best display)
* Professional = Pro (heavy workloads, need best display for color correctness)
After today, it's what exactly? Is it:
* Consumer = Air
* Business = Pro ???
* Professional = Pro with PROLED XDR
The base level has fewer ports / less beefy cpu / less features; right now the 14" M6, but previously dual core, two thunderbolt 13" intel MBPs without touchbar. These are popular with corporate fleets.
The 'real' MBPs have all the ports / beefy cpu / best features / optional bigger screens.
Apple likes its market segmentation but it's not precious about it in the face of big technology shifts. If there's hardware they love and want, they'll try to ship it and sort out the segmentation after.
I don’t think you’re making a compelling argument here. Arguably a processor is more relevant to a wider range of professionals than a screen is.
Or are you forgetting that you could choose display types on the old PowerBooks and MacBooks , or choose drive options for a premium etc?
There’s nobody confusing the Pro for the Air or the Neo.
Nobody is confusing the iPad base, air and pro. They’re all strongly segmented.
I don't get why they're doing this other than making another step towards unifying iOS and macOS (and visionOS?).
[1] https://mastodon.social/@allenu/117519656286195439
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnZI5uUSdEo
How many Macbook Pro owners are mobile app developers though?
You don’t have to touch it?
I mean it's a $400 up-charge over the same model without touchscreen. Not that unreasonable if you are a heavy app developer IMO.
Nowadays it feels like a gilded copy of existing tech that also failed to find PMF
Moreover they lost sight of excellent UX, each new OS update adds more bloatware and needless "features" while the calendar app weeps in the corner and slow performance and bugs plague the system
i hope there's a linux analog to pro display xdr at which point i can jump ship
2. Even better speakers
3. Thinner and lighter while retaining the 100 Wh battery
4. No more notch
Seems like a solid all-around update to be. Other than cellular, I can't possibly imagine what more people could want.
Once I got my MacBook - with it's phenomenal touchpad - this was no longer an issue, and over the years since, I have never, not once, wished it had a touchscreen.
All Apple needed to do was to introduce a MBP variant with an OLED screen, as an option for those willing to risk burn-in to gain perfect blacks, and that's it!
Meanwhile they just added a touchscreen. No new hinge. No new UI. Not even a Pen support.
WTF are they doing?
Presumably adding a feature that doesn't cost them very much or otherwise negatively affect the product, but which some users might like.
It's a negative on the brand because that sort of consistency is something that made Apple.
And there was an answer given by John Ternus:
"The Mac is first and foremost an indirect input device, built around the trackpad and keyboard. But I think there's times when it's comfortable and handy to have touch.
We needed to get to a point where adding touch didn't make the product lesser in any way. It didn't make it heavier. It didn't make it thicker. That came together with the OLED screen, the best display we've ever put into a Mac. All of these things, and, oh yeah, it has touch as well."
Apple has had more flops than hits in recent years. The Vision Pro, the Glass interface, the Duo hinge flaw that will almost certainly end up with a recall. The Apple Watch always listening, now the bangle touch display with nothing innovative to back it up?
They don't deliver like they used to. I was their fanboy for 10 years and they did deliver the quality and innovation consistently, I just don't see it anymore. The only thing they have going is the CPU.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/how-to-make-a-hackintosh-lap...
(And yes, I know the code got mangled. I don’t run the Vice archives.)
It was fine then, it will be fine now. This is a non-issue.
A 16" M3 Max with 128GB of RAM and no other upgrades would have been $5000 at launch.
They started shipping at the end of 2023, so you couldn't have bought a refurb.
Either you're remembering the price wrong or you got a crazy deal.
It's also pretty fucking sad how this thing comes with less RAM than my low-end Mac Studio from 2022. I only upgraded from a 512 GB SSD to 1 TB, and I still have 32 GB. And even still, I paid 2599€ for it, where as the OLED MacBook Pro is 4049€.
I have a Linux laptop with touchscreen, and my main use is to test the touch interactions on web apps, sometimes Android apps.
Sure it's possible to open it on the phone, but that's an extra step usually not justified.
For a dedicated iOS dev that's worth the hassle, for someone managing a team of devs or employees only needing apps to run without requiring a full dev env, it's quite convenient and potentially cheaper.
This feels more like a marketing gimmick, anyone remember the Touch Bar?
I think this is the wrong device to start with, though. The demand for touchscreens is probably highest in the cheapest lines. But presumably this will trickle down over the next few years.
Right? ... right? ... wait
oh
oh wait what
wait seriously?
tim. wtf is this shit, tim
I think there's a real possibility that AR takes off in the next 1-5 years. The combination of LLMs + smaller AR glasses makes AR a viable computing platform.
For example, simple things like, "Where are my keys?" is a lot easier to solve if (a) you're wearing your AR glasses already and (b) they have access to a frontier LLM.
However, it's very difficult to simulate "touching something" in AR using a mouse/trackpad and keyboard. What if you want to "twist open" a peanut butter jar? I could imagine touching the screen and twisting my fingers in a rotational pattern along the top of the can.
I think half of y'all are trying to justify your most recent MBP upgrade. Those of us still on the M1 are probably looking at this thinking about how fortunate it is that we've waited this long.
And let’s be honest, I bet those of us that use touch screens often enough have instinctively touched their laptops screen trying to scroll it on more than a few occasions, I know I’m guilty of it.
EDIT: I already can’t stand when people touch my display just to point at something, I definitely don’t want my own oily fingerprints smeared all over a screen I spend all day looking at.
Everything from my watch to my printer has a touch screen, it's kind of strange how long Apple has held out, especially with the ultra expensive market they target with their laptops.
Who plays a musical keyboard on a vertical surface? Nobody.
But having had to emulate pinch-zoom in an Android emulator has made me wish I had my touch screen laptop back. Emulated touch events also don't work like real touch events, so web dev can also be a bit annoying sometimes.
So, I'm curious about how you use it. Do you have a specific use case where touchscreen made you life easier?
I have a phone with a QWERTY keyboard that also acts as a trackpad, yet I rarely use mouse mode on it. Seeing kids interact with laptops for the first time and touching the screen expecting them to work like every other device they use is also probably a sign of the times.
I understand why not everyone likes them, though. Some people prefer to disable their trackpads too, or prefer ball mice, or prefer mouse gestures over keyboard gestures. To each their own. I welcome the diversity.
If Apple went through the effort making macOS touchscreen-ready for this new MacBook Pro, then perhaps we’ll see a tablet with macOS one day. I’d buy an iPad Pro with macOS in a heartbeat.
Although it's a lot more useful on laptops that can fold into a tablet, which neither MacBooks nor my Thinkpad can do.
How so? I have an M2, carry it in a bag daily but my screen is still pristine
Meanwhile the M1 Air I had for more than 3 years never saw the issue.
2) AI is forcing UI evolution that is hard to anticipate, but I suspect will be served well by having more kinds of inputs available in advance.
> “We’ve done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn’t work,” “Touch surfaces don’t want to be vertical. It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off,”
> “It doesn’t work, it’s ergonomically terrible.”
“Back to the Mac” event in 2010.
After the unnecessary iOS "glass", touchbar, and now this USD400 'arm-fatigue feature', and other - made soley for the media-money-shot 'features' - Apple is really just in the 'great demo' business and departs even further 'great product' business.
Remember when he was trying to tell us that the original iPhone having no App Store was intentional, we don’t need it, because we have the best web browser? Yeah, that was just a plain lie because the App Store wasn’t ready.
Or the time he got on stage and acted like the Rokr was a good phone (although you could see through that one a little better).
Steve would agree: "We've done tons of user tests on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical. It gives great demo, but after a short period of time you start to fatigue, and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. It doesn't work. It's ergonomically terrible."
It's like having a remote control to read your kindle that's sitting on a stand 2 feet away (which, coincidentally, Amazon just announced).
Apparently the Ternus era of Apple is focusing on whether something can be built, not whether it should be released.
I'm curious to see this in person. Looks like the "PROLED" is not using an RGB stripe layout.
Pixel density can reduce text fringing, but I have not seen a laptop OLED panel that renders text as well as an LCD yet.
The layout shown in that document is quite different.
But touch will go about as well as the touchbar did
The laptop touch screen always felt like an awkward use case to me because the ideal UX for touch and KBM are so different. If you're designing for use on laptop/desktop you need to design for KBM-first -- since the majority of devices will be -- and therefore the touch experience suffers, and users with a touchscreen just use the KBM.
I don't think the average consumer cares that much about this either. I've noticed my grandparents often buy laptops with touchscreens accidentally and then proceed to mostly interact with it by accident.
Part of me wants to believe that a company like apple must/would do this right if they were going to do it but on the other hand there's the whole touch bar debacle and it doesn't seem like their foldable phone is starting off with the best reviews either.
Which is why I think it makes sense for certain things where you can update the experience to be enhanced for touch but not, like, daily email & web browsing. But those things that will do well with touch do seem to align with the creative side of Apple's market - things like manipulating 3D objects, moving audio tracks around, that kind of stuff, if the interface is re-thought for a touch experience then I think there's a lot there.
Certainly there are times, even just basic things like looking at pictures, where I wish I could touch my monitor like it was a tablet.
I don't want to try to tap a link on a desktop rendered website, a mouse is more precise for that kind of thing, but I can imagine a lot of use cases that will improve if you assume that a large subset of your users has some kind of touch device.
Glad I'm not alone. Unfortunately every week I have to clean it from dust and also smudges that gets passed from the keyboard when you close the lid.
My comment was not about touchscreens in general, it was about touchscreens on laptops. The phone touch experience is excellent because everything is designed for touch. Correspondingly, if you plug a KBM into a phone, it's a very poor experience.
If my phone's display is oil repelling, it simply doesn't work very well. I regularly wipe the screen to keep it clean. Luckily, this is very easy to do since my phone is the size of my hand and the display is attached to a solid box with no hinges involved. I can clean it with my shirt when I notice smudges and am in the habit of doing so. A laptop screen is much more annoying to keep clean.
I’ve always been interested in HDR video (HDR 10 +, Dolby Vision, HLG) and have wondered if the marginal upgrade in producer display quality will further impact the consumer HDR consumption. Also I think it’s noteworthy that they showcase DaVinci Resolve instead of Final Cut Pro, which is their own non linear editor and color grading app.
Update: The one nice thing I noticed is the weight of the 16" is only 4.1lb vs. 4.7lb from the previous model. I guess OLED is a lot lighter. THAT would be nice.
For example, raising your arm to interact with a screen for any sustained period just doesn’t work ergonomically. In my experience, people who buy touchscreen-enabled laptops quickly loose the habit of using the touchscreen for exactly that reason.
It also makes the display look dirty. I expected Apple to pair this with some new coating or display technology that would reduce fingerprints and smudges, etc, but I’m not seeing anything like that either.
Overall I’m surprised Apple would add a whole new interaction model to the MacBook and barely explain why. Given how central UX has always been to Apple (they make a big deal of the mouse, the click wheel and multi-touch, etc.) That feels very... un-Apple.
I have not experienced that at all. I see people touch their touch-capable laptop screens all the time.
I don’t understand how people legitimately hold this belief that no one could or would use a laptop touchscreen. This is exactly how millions of people use their tablets every day. You hold it in your lap and you poke the screen. Or you use the stand to prop it up on a table and you poke at the screen. And shockingly, your arm doesn’t fall off.
- Native mobile apps
- Bigger iPhone
- Pen, as you mentioned
- Foldable iPhone
- Now touchscreen laptop
I've always thought the ideal future is to have the phone just be the desktop when docked, if computing advances well enough, and super disappointed this is just some random touch laptop.
The OLED is great as I use a 32" 4k 240hz OLED on MacOS and it has made a huge difference in my eye strain but I don't understand the point of the touch without a proper use for it.
* that you can use the Duo folded 90deg like a mini laptop.
I guess if users don’t touch it, then you just have to keep trying with something bigger to touch.
Touch while still being a normal laptop does feel odd. I would be curious who wants touch in this form factor.
It's wild to think that even just 12 months ago, I would have hailed the touchscreen MacBook Pro. Now I don't need much more than an Air. (I also did more video editing back then, whereas now I don't really do it) (and I also want to play games)
Absurd it took this long when they basically led the field in touchscreen innovation (especially on the UX side of things)
I always thought the Surface Book design by Microsoft was very Apple like and it always seemed like the logical step: let the screen detach but keep the extra horsepower in the base.
Flip-around convertible or kickstand with soft-cover keyboard both work a lot better, but also both have trade-offs.
I somewhat fondly recall my old HP Windows Pen PC where the screen would twist and lay back down over the keyboard. That thing was a brick, but it had the correct balance for a laptop and the keyboard keys were out of the way in tablet mode. Maybe Apple will bring that form factor back, but with a super thin OLED display and a really lightweight device.
- Native mobile apps
- Bigger iPhone
- Pen, as you mentioned
- Foldable iPhone
- Now touchscreen laptop
Anything else?
Having said that, I'd be afraid to touch it. On one of my MBPs, I held it by putting my hands near the hinge, with my thumbs resting in the lower corners of the screen. Over (a short period of) time, the protective(?) coating on the screen wore away.
I had it very badly on Intel MBP, and now on my M3 Max. I tried some screen protectors, but none of them stuck (pun intended).
I suppose touch only makes it worse?
Windows laptop took the same path, for the better.
If only you could run Linux on the damn thing so you could play games now.
Where is the reverse engineering army when you need them lol
How on god's green earth is this worth $2900?
If I needed one of these for my work (I don't) and was going to be using it every day for the next two years, I think I could justify it. It would be about $4 / day which is within reach. Add in the fact that Mac's have decent resale value and the daily expense could be quite a bit less.
1. Mini LED is fantastic so the OLED jump is marginal at best 2. I know many people with a touchscreen windows laptop. None of them uses the touch function on a regular basis
iPhone hotspot is slow, unreliable and drains the phone's battery quickly
Luckily i'm in a country where a 600GB 5G plan costs the equivalent of 15$ a month, with 3$ per extra eSIM (watch/computer/car/whatever)
is graphene os ready for primetime yet?
(don't care about the touchscreen)
I was gonna get it for the oled (also don’t care about touch screen) but now it’s also for the glowing logo!
The entire purpose of the laptop (for me at any rate) is to do real work without the touch screen.
I’m not sure what pro workflows would actually benefit from this vs. a wirelessly paired iPad. I would not pay a dollar extra for touch personally - but that screen does look nice.
And if so, has Apple changed the policy from developer opt-in to automatic on touchscreen Macs.
Otherwise this seems like a great upgrade, cant wait to get the M7 Pro version of this next year! (My M1 Pro holds up great for now.)
This is clearly targeted at creatives, the touchscreen feels more like a nice bonus they give out so people can experiment with touchscreen macOS and polish their apps for it - my guess is that this is preparation for a more convenient touch-based macOS device they're going to launch in a year or so.
IMO, this is a macbook pro but ~200g lighter and with an improved screen that's finally oled. Absolutely NOT worth 2900. An M6 mbp specced to 24GB is $700 cheaper directly on their site. Yeah it's an M6 and not an M5 pro, but I guarantee the performance difference won't matter 99.9% of the time.
$2900 is just ridiculous. So many better options with this budget.
Have you heard a recent 16" MBPro? They sound great. The Spatial Audio works. Maybe most people don't prioritize it, but it's a real quality of life thing. Same with deep black pixels: you don't know what the experience is worth until you have it. I value it highly.
The screens recently have been very good, but this one is better. Same with the sound. I'm glad it exists because it drives everyone to get better.
The parent comment was saying "better sound" as one of the upgrades you get for the $400, which is a comparison to the currently available macbook pros.
We saw this with foldables. It was a bad idea, but when Apple did it, it was a great idea all of a sudden.
And if you rewind a while back, you'll see "large phones are bad because one handed use .. blah blah" and then Pro Max.
Brothers, there is a market beyond your bash shells!
;p
Like the iPad when it’s docked to its smart keyboard, I don’t like touching it at the point, it’s better to use the trackpad that’s laying flat.
It also wobbles when you do touch it. The macbook may not do the wobble, but it will constantly push further open and this may weaken the hinge mechanism over time.
If there’s one killer feature though, it’s iOS device mirroring and the iOS simulators. I’ve instinctively reached up to touch the iOS simulator so many times.
I wonder how they do the glowing apple logo with no backlight.
Those greasy finger marks are really going to dazzle like never before.
[0]: https://www.touch-base.com/
So this probably isn’t the matter of macOS finally adding native support. More that they revealed what was already there.
Or it can be a complete rewrite. Either way they would have to explicitly implement support for external touchscreens using a generic driver instead of a specific one for each device.
Don't take me wrong, OLED displays on a a MacBook screen is quite a nice feat compared to regular the regular displays we have as of today.
Also brightness degradation on especially a tandem oled is unlikely within its reasonable lifespan. Tandem oleds are the literal peak of display technology for this size of panel. Image quality wise, there's no downside.
What gives?
Even though this reveal seems genuinely cool, this stat sounds weird. Why compare it to Intel Macs when the status quo has been Apple Silicon for half a dozen years?
I had a Dell OLED 4k laptop 4 years ago that depending on screen brightness would absolutely murder the battery.
I would probably never touch the screen with my fingers, but I would draw with it. Would also be really useful during calls.
> Draw. Sketch and annotate directly onscreen.
I do like how they are brining back ports. I think they need to add back the Ethernet port.
And look at all those glorious ports
Dynamic island looks nice.
You'd think Apple would understand the form factor.
Or does one still have to go to Dell for that?
the older macbooks used the display's backlight to illuminate the logo, but since these new OLED displays light up individual pixels I wonder how they're lighting it up now...
Huawei made a Fold laptop that seems to be running Linux already if you're into that.
I don't like it, it still will be a popular laptop and within 5 years - one of the best. I am moving away from Apple, thank you for a ride!
They refused for decades to put a touchscreen because they know very well it will eat on their ipad sales.
One less reason to get an ipad pro.
The price is really high too.
It doesn't work.
Steve Jobs said this in October 2010 during Apple's "Back to the Mac" special event, where the company was previewing Mac OS X Lion.
Everything is going down the drain right in front of our eyes.
I can't make sense of any counterargument as anything but copium.
Glowing logo: sure
Touchscreen: nah
What exactly does Apple do different again?
This is so bizarre. I'll never understand Apple fans.
If you want a screen to touch get a fucking tablet.
- MacBook Neo
- MacBook Air 13-inch (M5)
- MacBook Air 15-inch (M5)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch (M6)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch (M5)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch (M5 Pro)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch (M5 Max)
- MacBook Pro 16-inch (M5 Pro)
- MacBook Pro 16-inch (M5 Max)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch with PROLED XDR Display (M5 Pro)
- MacBook Pro 14-inch with PROLED XDR Display (M5 Max)
- MacBook Pro 16-inch with PROLED XDR Display (M5 Pro)
- MacBook Pro 16-inch with PROLED XDR Display (M5 Max)
Why are Apple's new product lines so..self-defeating now? I wanted to get the iPhone Duo but it has worse cameras than my iPhone 17 Pro Max, and now this Mac..
Looks like people who want the best of everything will have to skip this year.
I have had touch screen laptop (Dell Inspiron), and boy, it was such a horrible and useless feature. Screen is always greasier than gas-station hot dog.
Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure their stock is headed for a new ATH.
1. No cellular? This was honestly one of the biggest selling points in my eyes. The iPhone hotspot has been so unreliable lately.
2. Never would use the touchscreen in software engineering. Agree with others that I don't understand a real use case for it, and apparently their website designers can't either.
3. OLED is nice.
4. 24h battery life is nice.
5. No M6 Pro/Max. Just getting one generation up?
6. Not even a cool name? No Macbook Ultra? Macbook Studio? Obviously not important, but even they couldn't justify it as its own separate product from the existing Pros.
On the bright side, the wallet savings are nice. Absolutely not worth a $4,150 hit (using my M4 Pro 48GB/1TB 16" as reference)
Especially if they don't even have stylus support
Dynamic island sounds like it will be huge distraction if animations will play there.
Besides holding my arms up it’s also painful to keep my wrists bent to get a better angle for my fingers to articulate.
Really... I would expect this naming from an Onion article.
It being marked as a highlight makes even less sense to me.
Someone help an old graybeard out?
Take down the store and website for a few minutes, boot it back up, boom. That's it. They couldn't even bother with a keynote or a livestream or something.
For their flagship laptop receiving a substantial update after six years. Okay.
So without that, having touch doesn't make any sense and once again, won't buy this unless the second generation of touch Macbooks are available.
Worked well with the first foldable iPhone Duo didn't it? /s